angry mother defends gay son
David on Aug 23rd 2007
The following letter has been circulating in a few LGBTQ listservs and we thought it appropriate to share with our blog readers. It’s written by the mother of a gay child in Vermont, in response to a letter to the editor.
Many letters have been sent to the Valley News concerning the homosexual menace in Vermont. I am the mother of a gay son and I’ve taken enough from you good people. I’m tired of your foolish rhetoric about the “homosexual agenda” and your allegations that accepting homosexuality is the same thing as advocating sex with children. You are cruel and ignorant. You have been robbing me of the joys of motherhood ever since my children were tiny.
My firstborn son started suffering at the hands of the moral little thugs from your moral, upright families from the time he was in the first grade. He was physically and verbally abused from first grade straight through high school because he was perceived to be gay.
He never professed to be gay or had any association with anything gay, but he had the misfortune not to walk or have gestures like the other boys. He was called “fag” incessantly, starting when he was 6.
In high school, while your children were doing what kids that age should be doing, mine labored over a suicide note, drafting and redrafting it to be sure his family knew how much he loved them. My sobbing 17-year-old tore the heart out of me as he choked out that he just couldn’t bear to continue living any longer, that he didn’t want to be gay and that he couldn’t face a life without dignity.
You have the audacity to talk about protecting families and children from the homosexual menace, while you yourselves tear apart families and drive children to despair. I don’t know why my son is gay, but I do know that God didn’t put him, and millions like him, on this Earth to give you someone to abuse. God gave you brains so that you could think, and it’s about time you started doing that.
At the core of all your misguided beliefs is the belief that this could never happen to you, that there is some kind of subculture out there that people have chosen to join. The fact is that if it can happen to my family, it can happen to yours, and you won’t get to choose. Whether it is genetic or whether something occurs during a critical time of fetal development, I don’t know. I can only tell you with an absolute certainty that it is inborn.
If you want to tout your own morality, you’d best come up with something more substantive than your heterosexuality. You did nothing to earn it; it was given to you. If you disagree, I would be interested in hearing your story, because my own heterosexuality was a blessing I received with no effort whatsoever on my part. It is so woven into the very soul of me that nothing could ever change it. For those of you who reduce sexual orientation to a simple choice, a character issue, a bad habit or something that can be changed by a 10-step program, I’m puzzled. Are you saying that your own sexual orientation is nothing more than something you have chosen, that you could change it at will? If that’s not the case, then why would you suggest that someone else can?
A popular theme in your letters is that Vermont has been infiltrated by outsiders. Both sides of my family have lived in Vermont for generations. I am heart and soul a Vermonter, so I’ll thank you to stop saying that you are speaking for “true Vermonters.”
You invoke the memory of the brave people who have fought on the battlefield for this great country, saying that they didn’t give their lives so that the “homosexual agenda” could tear down the principles they died defending. My 83-year-old father fought in some of the most horrific battles of World War II, was wounded and awarded the Purple Heart.
He shakes his head in sadness at the life his grandson has had to live. He says he fought alongside homosexuals in those battles, that they did their part and bothered no one. One of his best friends in the service was gay, and he never knew it until the end, and when he did find out, it mattered not at all. That wasn’t the measure of the man.
You religious folk just can’t bear the thought that as my son emerges from the hell that was his childhood he might like to find a lifelong companion and have a measure of happiness. It offends your sensibilities that he should request the right to visit that companion in the hospital, to make medical decisions for him or to benefit from tax laws governing inheritance.
How dare he? you say. These outrageous requests would threaten the very existence of your family, would undermine the sanctity of marriage. You use religion to abdicate your responsibility to be thinking human beings. There are vast numbers of religious people who find your attitudes repugnant. God is not for the privileged majority, and God knows my son has committed no sin.
The deep-thinking author of a letter to the April 12 ‘05 Valley News who lectures about homosexual sin and tells us about “those of us who have been blessed with the benefits of a religious upbringing” asks: “What ever happened to the idea of striving . . . to be better human beings than we are?”
Indeed, sir, what ever happened to that?
AND WHAT.
I’m a better man for having read that letter. Peace.
Well-written letter and always good to read someone sticking up for a family member and, in turn, all of us.
Thanks for posting it!
Truly Christian letter.
A truly inspiring and uplifting letter by a couragous woman and mother. Her son is so lucky to have a wonderful mother like her!
Thanks. The world needs more people like this woman.
I wish she was my mother.
Beautiful letter that expresses many of our feelings perfectly.
Very well written. This women holds more moral ground in her left hand than all of the “Christians” put together. Her son should be proud to be part of this family.
Simply amazing and powerful! I am grateful to have been able to read her kind words. And yes, to have such a mother is a blessing, indeed.
We should all be forwarding or writing letters like this to all of our papers. We all need to stand up with similar strength, courage and honesty. Thanks
[…] included the entire Family Pride-provided letter after the jump, but want to highlight our favorite part of her anti-homophobe harangue: You […]
That is one of the most beautiful and heartfelt things I have ever read. How could some of those people writing the other letters not feel very small after reading this?
I strongly believe this letter should be required reading for EVERYBODY EVERYWHERE, from high school classrooms to the offices of elected officials nationwide!
This mother singlehandedly voiced the opinions of each and every gay man and woman living in society today. Her words hit hard and drove home truths that many have chosen to ignore for far too long. I commend her for her courageous stand. She’s everything a proper parent should be. You go, girl!
Truly Christian letter.
Um, I guess that depends on how you define Christian. If you mean someone who can only see compassion as god’s nature, but avoids truth and holiness (without which no one will see God, says Paul the apostle), then you would be correct.
I find naught Christian about playing dumb as to the dysfunctional causes of homosexuality and the scriptural condemnation of it.
Love and truth work together. While the teasing of children is cruel and wrong, such rejection of an otherwise sensitive and normal child probably LED to his failure to identify with his own gender, and reject it for a homosexual identity. And the mother did not discuss what factors in her home might have contributed to his sexuality. I heard nothing of a father in her response, nor of a healthy marriage and family life, though such could have been present.
Nevertheless, it is a mere colloquialism to say that something or someone is “Christian” just because they are kind. While kindness is laudable and part of Christian (or Buddhist, etc.) maturity, it is not the sum of what it means to be a Christian, so is holiness, truth, and acknowledgment of the gospel message, which is that all are guilty before God, and must believe that Christ died for their guilt, and that they ought to receive him as savior AND boss (lord) to avoid receiving the penalty for their guilt. THAT is the gospel that Jesus commanded us to preach. That is what is truly and distinctly christian.
Seeker… apparently someone has missed the point entirely. Do yourself and everyone else a favor, and read that letter again. This time, open your head and your heart, and a truth that is greater than anything you currently hold onto will dawn on you.
I’m so grateful for this mother. I wish more parents understood as truly as she does.
For Seeker:
Dearest Seeker,
Looks like your journey is far, far from over. Consider the following for your edification. This was a letter written to Dr. Laura, I’m sure you’ve heard of her, after she said on her radio program that she believed that gay people were a mistake of nature and a biological error.
————————————————————————————
Dear Dr. Laura,
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.
a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?
e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this?
g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?
i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.
Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging.
Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.
I wish my mum was like you. I am now a happily married gay man in Holland. Unfortunately since I got married - she has said I was an afront to god and stopped the whole familyu talking to me.
Youre a VERY good mother!
This world would be a better place if every child had a mother like this.
I’d like to gently remind everyone that “homophobe” is not a synonym for “Christian.” As a matter of fact, “homophobic Christian” is an oxymoron. Yes, Leviticus (which applied strictly to “the Israelites”) expressly condemned the act of two men having sex, but it also mentions various other offenses that were punishable by death: cursing one’s father or mother, sleeping with your neighbor’s wife (pretty much the entire cast of Desperate Housewives!), etc. Fast forward several centuries later, and while St. Paul was much less severe in his criticism, homosexual acts were still lumped together with offenses such as “fornication,” which covers ANY sexual act between non-married individuals. Yet, even the apostles argued amongst themselves regarding the qualifications for entering the kingdom of God. For example, St. Peter argued that no uncircumcised man could enter Heaven. Paul strongly disagreed. There was a heated controversy between the two sides, and eventually, Paul’s views won out. [Luckily for us, this means that a man doesn’t have to worry about being condemned to hell simply because his anteater is still intact.] Meanwhile in the Bible, Jesus never even mentioned circumcision or homosexuality. I believe that He has now left it for His children to decide how we are to treat each other. As long as a relationship is filled with compassion and love, how can it be “anti-Christian”? Note that it is the speech and actions of homophobes that sow the seeds of hatred, scandal, and controversy. By contrast, true love between two men, two women, or a woman and a man is permeated by peace, joy, and understanding. Now tell me, which seems more “Christian”, that is, which one is more “Christ-like”?
For those of you who would foolishly continue to persecute homosexuals using the word of God, mind your own business lest God use His own Word against you! We all die, we’ll all be judged. In the meantime, try not to rack up any points against yourself! “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.” And, “Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of God.”
Joseph - From the Latin Iosephus, which was from the Greek Ιωσηφος (Iosephos), which was from the Hebrew name יוֹסֵף (Yosef) meaning “he will add”. In the Old Testament Joseph is the eleventh son of Jacob. Because he was the favourite of his father, his older brothers sent him to Egypt and told their father that he had died. In Egypt, Joseph became an advisor to the pharaoh, and was eventually reconciled with his brothers when they came to Egypt during a famine. This is the name of two characters in the New Testament: Joseph the husband of Mary and Joseph of Arimathea. Also, rulers of the Holy Roman Empire have had this name.
You have truly lived up to your name.
Some Interesting, reading :
1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 1 Timothy 1:8-10
Two Indeterminate Texts
By Fr. Daniel Helminiak, Dignity/Houston BBS
The meaning of these texts, said to exclude homosexual people from the Kingdom of God, hinges on the meaning of two Greek Terms, `malakoi’ and `arsenokotai.’ Throughout history these terms have been translated variably (masturbatory, practicers of heterosexual anal sex, sodomites, catamites and the like). Suggested translations today still vary (morally loose, masturbators who waste their property, boys and their pederast partners, temple prostitutes serving men and women, gold-digging gay hustlers who pursue the elderly). No one really knows what these terms mean. There is no good reason to suppose they apply to consensual, respectful, homosexual acts per se, especially since such an interpretation would be in conflict with all the rest of the Bible.
I CORINTHIANS 6:9-10 and I TIMOTHY 1:10
by Bill Sklar
“References on Homosexuality and the Bible”
I CORINTHIANS 6:9-10 reads:
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate [malakoi], nor homosexual offenders [arsenokoites], nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
I placed two words in brackets. The first one, “malakoi”, Scroggs (p. 14) says “literally means ’soft’ and is no technical term for a homosexual.” It apparently refers to young boys who would take the “recepient” position in anal sex, often for money. It’s also translated in some Bibles as “morally weak”.
“Aresenokoitai”, on the other hand, is clearly a sexual term but, according to Scroggs:
Since… the New Testament occurrences are the earliest appearances of the word, it is not easy for us to be sure what it means. John Boswell in his recent study denies that it refers to a homosexual person in general but rather specifically to the male prostitute who could serve heterosexual or homosexual clients. At any rate, the sin is prostitution, not homosexuality in itself. (p. 14)
These words are the words used both in Corinthians and in I Timothy 1:10 which are commonly translated into modern bibles as “homosexual”, “effeminate,” and “self-indulgent.” In these enlightened times, however,there is no indication that such terms are in any way connected to homosexuality in itself.
In fact, according to Is the Homosexual my Neighbor by Letha Scanzoni and Virginia Ramey Mollenkott:
the idea of a lifelong homosexual orientation or “condition” is never mentioned in the Bible… Bible writers assumed that everyone was heterosexual and that in times of moral decay, some heterosexuals peopled did some strange and unnatural things with each other. Since the Bible is silent about the homosexual condition, those who want to understand it must rely on the findings of modern behavorial science research… (p. 71)
In summary, despite common interpretations of the words “malakoi” and “aresenokoitai” in modern times, there is no clear evidence which links them unquestionably to homosexuality in itself. Instead, in every case in which they are used, there is an implied connection with either prostitution or child molestation. Modern research shows us, however, that such connections are fallacious. There is no research which clearly demonstrates that there is any correlation between homosexuality and the “sins” referenced alongside it in Corinthians and Timothy.
Lexicography and St Paul
by James Alan Hall s883334@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au
“Biblical arguments and homosexuality”
(most of argument, and some text, taken from chapter four of John Boswell Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality, confirmed by Hall in Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible)
I Corinthians 6:9-10 reads, “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.” “Effeminate” is a poor translation of the Greek word “malakos” which means “soft”. The word is not translated as “effeminate” anywhere else in the Bible. It is the same word that is translated as “soft” in Matthew 11:8 (”But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings’ houses”; similarly Luke 7:25). In a moral sense, “malakos” just means “licentious”; Aristotle in the _Nicomachean Ethics_ (7.4.4) says specifically that “malakos” refers to unrestraint in respect to bodily pleasures. The translation as “effeminate” seems awfully gratuitous. “Abuser of himself with mankind” is a translation of the Greek word “arsenokoites”; this word has changed meaning several times over the centuries, so it’s perhaps understandable how it got translated as it did; but in Paul’s time, and in fact until well into the fourth century, it seems to have simply meant a temple prostitute. (Corroborating this indirectly is the fact that a great deal of contemporary homoerotic Greek writing has survived and not once in any of it does the word “arsenokoites” appear.)
I Timothy 1:10 refers to “them that defile themselves with mankind”; this is a translation of the same Greek word “arsenokoites” as appears in I Corinthians.
from WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY
by Wilfrid R. Koponen, Ph.D., M.B.A., M.A.R., M.A.)
1 Corinthians 6:9, 1 Timothy 1:10. The key words are translated differently in different versions: from 1 Cor.: “catamites, sodomites” (Moffat); “effeminate, homosexuals” (ASV); “homosexual perversion: (New English Bible); “Male prostitutes, homosexual offenders” (New International Version) etc.; 1 Timothy is also variously translated. However, there was no noun in Greek for homosexual; apparently the translations condemning homosexuals are inaccurate. The Greek words suggest not “homosexual” but “effeminate” or “morally weak or soft” or “cowardly.”
It seems some people may not realize that there is a distinct and significant difference between “gender” identification and sexual “orientation”. One can be born male, identify as male, and yet be attracted to members of the same sex. This would be defined as their sexual orientation.
On the other hand, one can be born into a male body, but identify as female in thoughts, feelings and actions. Where this person is distinctly thinking as a female, yet was born with male apparatus. This would be defined as gender identification.
It’s easy to think in binary terms, black or white, zero or one, right or wrong, male body or female body. The problem is that the human species is a much more diverse and varied creature (sometimes you have to step outside of yourself to really see yourself) and we cannot and should not be systematically lumped into just two categories of existence.
There are some that are born different, slightly or extreme, and they deserve the right to be treated as an equal human being and not be subjected to harm, pain and suffering. Just because they were born the way their parents’ genes and DNA determined how they would be born. These things are beyond their individual control.
I believe that it is the responsibility of ALL adults, parents or not, to teach children to not to be mean, hurtful and bigoted. This first begins by ALL adults acting and behaving themselves in the ways that they wish their own children should act and behave.
Granted, once a child grows older and starts to think for themselves and they subsequently choose to be bigots, racists, etc. at least you will know that it’s not by your hands.
1. I did not miss the intent of the original letter, I was responding to one commenter’s idea that such a letter was “Christian.”
2. I have explored the gay interpretation of the important biblical passages regarding homosexuality in detail on my own blog, and found them mostly wanting. Suffice it to say that I think it is clear that the scriptures condemn homosexuality as sin.
3. The tongue in cheek letter to Dr. Laura can be easily dismissed by any first-semester seminary student with a simple discussion of the differences between the OT ceremonial and moral laws, and why the former were for Israel alone, and are now fulfilled in Christ, so no longer applicable, and why the MORAL law, including condemnations of adultery, homosexuality, and bestiality, still remain valid.
4. My main point was that, while the mother has a valid point that children are cruel, and that we should not be bullying people, the reality that was missing from this whole discussion was that just because someone is different and persecuted doesn’t make their choices noble - if I am picked on because I desire to shove pencils up my nose, perhaps we should not justify my actions as normal.
Wow, I’d love to have a parent like that. I found out that both of mine were anti-gay… You can guess what happens next.
[…] their followers that gay people are worthless and are worthy of abuse Here are some snippets of the letter she wrote: Many letters have been sent to the Valley News concerning the homosexual menace in […]
I’ve always thought of Vermont as green and pastoral,a slice of perfection, it never occured to me that intolerance would or could wander those beautiful hills. This mother has found an inner peace knowing that God did indeed create all of us, and in doing so made no mistakes. God does not punish the human spirit, that is a game man is playng in his name, find joy in yourselves, God intended it to be. For those that find pleasure in the misery of others, God will deliver your punishment, you will not fool God on that day of reckoning, he will be the judge, not you.
God did indeed create all of us, and in doing so made no mistakes.
That is a nice sentiment, but it does not hold up to either biblical interpretation, nor reality. As to the biblical picture of man, he is both made in the image of God (and therefore beautiful) AND fallen (sinful and in need of God’s redemption). Humanists make the error of emphasizing only the first side of the truth, while fundamentalists only emphasize the second. I’ve discussed this fully in Is man basically good or evil?
In reality, we admit that man is fallen by understanding such aphorisms as “ultimate power corrupts ultimately,” and by viewing the cruelty of nations that specifically prohibit the biblical God (communism and socialism).
Neither does your flawed logic, Seeker. Tell me, why is it that people like you, so called “religious” or “christian” people, feel that you can travel the world over condemning others who don’t fit into the little frame you see the world through? Why are you son concerned with who I love? Why are you so concerned that we have a long term commitment, and a life together? Why do you, as a christian, want to deny me that which you have so freely been given, and now take for granted? Why are you SO concerned with what goes on in my home, behind closed doors, in MY bedroom? Who I sleep with is NOT a measure of who I am. I am many things beyond just being gay. I am a nurse, whose goal in life is to help others. I am a singer who loves music and feels that there is nothing closer to God than pure, beautiful music written by geniuses using the gifts given to them by that same God. I am MANY things, for better for for worse, but I am PROUD of who and what I am. I was born this way. Sister Mary Evangeline is correct. God put me here for a reason, and it’s NOT up to YOU to decide what the reason should be. I am a human being, the same as you. Think how you might feel if you woke up tomorrow and YOU and your significant other had NO protection under the law. I have the right to love the man I do. I do not have the right to see him in the hospital, or inherit his property, or file joint taxes, or any of the hundreds of other rights that you have. I will not say that all Christians are like you, because they are not, most definitely. True Christians “Love one another.” as Christ commanded them to do. And please, spare me the “love the sinner, hate the sin” crap. That’s a canned answer that holds no weight. You either love someoe or you don’t. You may not agree with who or what I am, but you’re not living my life, so why bother? Why can’t you let me live in peace. Don’t I deserve a life as good as yours?
And by the way, even I know that St. Paul wrote that you cannot live by one part of the old testament. It’s an all or nothing scenario. You cannot pick and choose the parts of scripture that you use against others. The bible is not a weapon.
And, I’d be interested to know exactly WHERE in the Bible did JESUS condemn me? He’s really the only character in the book that REALLY matters, isn’t he….
Oh, and I forgot one other thing. My choices are not noble. I did NOT choose to be gay. You need to check your research and stop taking the FRC’s word as gospel. Their “research” is a load of crap.
St. Paul wrote that you cannot live by one part of the old testament.
I’m not sure what passage you are alluding to, but there are many passages in the NT which decidedly tell us that Christians do not need to obey either the ceremonial or dietary laws. However, the moral laws, as I said, are still valid, and always have been. However, the biblical PUNISHMENTS for violating the moral law (like capital punishment for homosexuaity) are NOT binding on Christians, but I am not as familiar with the theology there.
Here are the main NT scriptures contradicting your assertion that Paul said we should obey all of the OT laws (and besides the scriptures below, thinking that we are to obey the laws at ALL shows an ingnorance of how the gospel actually functions):
DIETARY LAWS AND CHRISTIANS
—————–
Mark 7:15 (Jesus speaking)
“there is nothing from without a man that entering into him can defile him”
Romans 14:14 (Paul discussing eating meat offered to idols)
I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean.
1 Corinthians 8:7-8 (Paul discussing eating meat offered to idols)
“For some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. But meat commends us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither if we eat not, are we the worse.
Colossians 2:16
“Let no man therefore judge you in meat [food] or drink, or in the respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days.”
1 Timothy 4:4
“Every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving”
CHRISTIANS DON’T HAVE TO OBEY THE CEREMONIAL LAWS
This is, of course, because they were all a foreshadowing of the substitutionary work of the Messiah. Once that was done, all such sacrifices were no longer needed.
Colossians 2:16-17 (also see Heb. 8:5)
Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
See Hebrews 10 for a more complete explanation of why the ceremonial laws no longer apply.
I did NOT choose to be gay.
The entire “choice” argument, is a red herring. Because we view homosexuality as a psychological coping mechanism that is adopted usually unconsciously, and often while gender identity is forming at ages that predate cognitive memory (ages 2-4), we understand that homosexuality is often not chosen at all.
But when we mature, if we want to become healthy, we must do the hard work of inner healing, and CHOOSE to abandon such dysfunctions through therapy, forgiveness, and restoration of our person to our true, created nature.
So while you may not have chosen your SSA, you CAN choose to heal the roots of thid dysfuntion.
My kids have started to equate Christianity with homophobia. I am trying to teach them that real Christians are not bigots. Some fake Christians in this country have hijacked the name and live their lives in ways that are the polar opposite of what Jesus Christ would have taught.
We have some of those fake Christians in our own family. Their 8 year old daughter made a gay slur in front of our family. When it was brought up to the parents the mother told me “She didn’t say anything wrong”. It was obvious where the homophobic remark was learned.
I feel sorry for the true Christians out there that get lumped in with these nuts and frauds. I myself have to struggle to remind myself these born agains are nothing more than a cult that pretend to follow the teaching of Christ, when in fact the practice every bit of intolerance that he preached against. The real Christians are the ones who are running homeless shelters or visiting the elderly, not the nuts wanting to ban gay adoption or banning the teaching of evolution in our schools.
This letter touched me, it says so much that many of feel about the non-Christian Christians.
I am a former member of various ex-gay groups and a born-again Christian myself. I tried in vain to shed my unwanted homosexuality, using the same means that “seeker” proposed: prayer, therapy, etc. Finally in early 2001, through what I still believe to be Divine Revelation, I realized that God loved me just as I am and that I didn’t have to change or become someone else. Now I still don’t know for sure if I was born this way or if it’s a deficit created early in life (nature vs. nurture). And frankly, I’ve stopped caring. All I know is, this is who I am now, and it’s not going to change. I know because I tried. Yes, I also know all the biblical arguments for and against, although I’m not very good at debating them.
I also want to congratulate that Vermont mother for standing up for what she believes in. I’d like to think that the homophobic comments stopped as a result, but somehow I think she would’ve received even more vitriol from her opponents. Because the war of words on this battleground just do not cease, much as I wish they would.
You did not answer my questions seeker. I seek answers, and I’m still waiting for you to tell me why. And as for homosexuality being a psychological coping mechanism…where on EARTH did you get that from? There is no therapy on this earth that could make me abandon who I am just so I can fit into your world. Like I said before. I’m proud of who I am, and not fitting into YOUR view of the world is last on my list of priorities. I am LIVING my true, created nature. For me to abandon who I am, who I have ALWAYS known I am just because people like you feel I should would be the most cowardly thing I can imagine. To quote Goethe, “If God had wanted me otherwise, he would have created me otherwise.” You do not speak for God, seeker. You speak for a group of men and women on this earth who, like ALL men and women, desire power and influence. As I said already. God and the bible are not weapons to be used against others who disagree with you. I’ll ask you again:
Why is it that people like you, so called “religious” or “christian” people, feel that you can travel the world over condemning others who don’t fit into the little frame you see the world through? Why are you son concerned with who I love? Why are you so concerned that we have a long term commitment, and a life together? Why do you, as a christian, want to deny me that which you have so freely been given, and now take for granted? Why are you SO concerned with what goes on in my home, behind closed doors, in MY bedroom?
WHERE in the Bible did JESUS condemn me?
Your argument that the ceremonial laws in the OT do not apply, but the moral laws do is rubbish. Read St Paul again. If Christ fulfilled old testament law, then he fulfilled ALL of it. You can’t pick and choose. Christ never judged anyone, to my knowledge. He left that to others like you. “Judge not, lest ye be judged.” Funny how it still applies.
RE: Seeker
“The entire “choice” argument, is a red herring. Because we view homosexuality as a psychological coping mechanism that is adopted usually unconsciously, and often while gender identity is forming at ages that predate cognitive memory (ages 2-4), we understand that homosexuality is often not chosen at all.
But when we mature, if we want to become healthy, we must do the hard work of inner healing, and CHOOSE to abandon such dysfunctions through therapy, forgiveness, and restoration of our person to our true, created nature.
So while you may not have chosen your SSA, you CAN choose to heal the roots of thid dysfuntion.”
Homosexuality as a “dysfunction.” This word has one meaning in the moral context and another in psychology. Morally, a dysfunction would be anything that deviates from a religion or culture’s accepted rules. In psychology, however, a dysfunction is something that causes distress and is counter-productive to one’s well-being. Obviously, I can say to you, “I am a gay male, my sexual orientation does not cause me distress and I therefore do not have a dysfunction.” That is why Same Sex Attraction Disorder (SSAD) is no longer recognized by the American Psychological Association. In order for it to be a psychological disorder or dysfunction it has to cause people distress. Physically, being gay causes me no distress. Spiritually, it still causes me no distress. You speak of a desire to become healthy and heal, but I am well. I am happy. I have my own relationship with God. Should I let fear of hell turn me into someone that I have no desire to be? My God is love, not fear.
I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. ~ Mahatma Gandhi
So your son was gay from the time he was in first grade? How did you know this? I was picked on in first grade too. My parents made the decision to homeschool me and I turned out straight. I might submit that schoolchildren are cruel as a matter of nature, and that being different is not the same as being gay. No one should ever have to labor over a suicide note, but they should not be so weak-minded as to assume that they are gay because others tell them so.
You did not answer my questions seeker.
I actually tried to post them twice, but they have too many links or too much text or something, and they were not posted.
You speak for a group of men and women on this earth who, like ALL men and women, desire power and influence.
No, I am speaking what I believe to be true, not to mention biblical. I don’t want power, but I do want to protect my children from hurt people who want to influence my kids towards such unhealthy self-concepts and unnatural sexuality.
I can say to you, “I am a gay male, my sexual orientation does not cause me distress and I therefore do not have a dysfunction.” That is why Same Sex Attraction Disorder (SSAD) is no longer recognized by the American Psychological Association.
You could say that, but you would be wrong. HOmosexuality is associated with higher rates of depression, substance abuse, disease, domestic violence, unstable relationships, and suicide, EVEN AFTER you correct for social stigma.
And as I’ve mentioned, the removel of SSAD from the DSM was a political decision, not a scientific one.
http://www.twoorthree.net/2005/06/how_politics_gu.html
Should I let fear of hell turn me into someone that I have no desire to be? My God is love, not fear.
No, you should let your love of truth and holiness, and a desire to know God in actuality that would cause you to forsake homosexuality.
WHERE in the Bible did JESUS condemn me?
By agreeing with the Old Testament moral law. By teaching that marriage is between a man and a woman.
And if you only want to read the gospels, but leave out the letters of Paul, then you could convince yourself that homosexuality is not a sin. But not only would you then not really be Christian, since the Bible defines Christianity, not just the gospels, but you would still have the problem of Jesus agreeing that every jot and tittle of the OT law is valid and needs to be fulfilled.
Like he said to the woman caught in adultery, “neither do I condemn you, NOW GO AND SIN NO MORE.”
Seeker, based on all of your comments, I conclude that you are a follower of Paul and not Jesus. I would caution you to continue “seeking” the real truth and not just putting all of your eggs in Paul’s basket. Do some research on Paul himself and you will discover the truth.
Start with the following:
The following are quotes from other sources on issues concerning Judaism, Christianity, and the false apostle Paul.
From the book, “The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception”
by Michael Bajgent and Richard Leigh (Corgi Books, London, 1991)
“… Paul is in effect the first Christian heretic, and his teachings, which become the foundation of later Christianity, are a flagrant deviation from the ‘Original’ or ‘pure’ form extolled by the leadership. Whether James, the ‘Lord’s brother,’ was literally Jesus’ blood kin or not (and everything suggests he was), it is clear that he knew Jesus…personally. So did most of the other members of the community or ‘early Church,’ in Jerusalem, including of course, Peter. When they spoke, they did so with first hand authority. Paul had never had such personal acquaintance with the figure he’d begun to regard as his ‘Savior.’ He had only his quasi-mystical experience in the desert and the sound of a disembodied voice. For him to arrogate authority to himself on this basis is, to say the least, presumptuous. It also leads him to distort Jesus’ teachings beyond recognition, to formulate, in fact, his own highly individual and idiosyncratic theology, and then to legitimize it by spuriously ascribing it to Jesus.”
“As things transpired, however, the mainstream of the new movement gradually coalesced, during the next three centuries, around Paul and his teachings. Thus, to the undoubted posthumous horror of James and his associates, an entirely new religion was indeed born, a religion that came to have less and less to do with its supposed founder.”
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Thomas Jefferson
“Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus.”
From a letter to W. Short published in The Great Thoughts by George Sildes (Ballantine Books, New York, 1985, p.208)
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Albert Schweitzer
“Where possible he (Paul) avoids quoting the teaching of Jesus, in fact even mentioning it. If we had to rely on Paul, we should not know that Jesus taught in parables, had delivered the sermon on the mount, and had taught His disciples the ‘Our Father.’ Even where they are specially relevant, Paul passes over the words of the Lord.”
(The Mysticism of Paul the Apostle, p. 171)
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Jeremy Bentham
The renowned English philosopher , in his Not Paul But Jesus, declared:
“It rests with every professor of the religion of Jesus to settle within himself to which of the two religions, that of Jesus or that of Paul, he will adhere.”
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Ferdinand Christian Baur
The eminent theologian, in his Church History of the First Three Centuries, wrote:
“What kind of authority can there be for an ‘apostle’ who, unlike the other apostles, had never been prepared for the apostolic office in Jesus’ own school but had only later dared to claim the apostolic office on the basis on his own authority? The only question comes to be how the apostle Paul appears in his Epistles to be so indifferent to the historical facts of the life of Jesus….He bears himself but little like a disciple who has received the doctrines and the principles which he preaches from the Master whose name he bears.”
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Bishop John S. Spong (Episcopal Bishop of Newark)
“Paul’s words are not the Words of God. They are the words of Paul- a vast difference.”
(Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism, p. 104, Harper San Francisco, 1991)
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Carl Jung (Psychologist)
“Paul hardly ever allows the real Jesus of Nazareth to get a word in.”
(U.S. News and World Report, April 22, 1991, p. 55)
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Hyam Maccoby (Talmudic Scholar)
“Paul, not Jesus, was the founder of Christianity as a new religion which developed away from both normal Judaism and the Nazarene variety of Judaism.”
(The Mythmaker, Barnes & Noble, p. 16)
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An Open Letter to Evangelists
By brother Jerry of Qumran Bet Community
“Is that a Jew hat?”, was his introductory line…
Now, this letter is an attempt to explore the do’s and don’ts of proselytizing His chosen people. Before you open your mind, your heart and commit to a dialogue designed to convert these misguided souls, it’s best to check your facts. Remember two things, first, beginning four thousand years ago, they were the vessels into which HaShem poured His truth, also no other religion or nation could claim Abraham or sacred truth and it was prophesied that they would be a blessing to all nations but then, the second point to remember, nearly two thousand years ago, a new religion was conceived laying claim to the authority of the old. The foundation of Christianity must be Judaism or it has no foundation at all. In these roughly, two millennia of divorcement, the Christian religion has evolved into the epitome of the ’strange woman’. The Holy Writ of the Hebrew people forbids the inclusion of other mighty ones (gods) in their worship. If you come bringing a mighty one (god) that was not known to the Patriarchs, this same Holy Writ commands you be stoned! If you come teaching the end of the Law, this is lawlessness and you are cursed of Yah. Remember the one you call Jesus, was in fact a man called Yahushua, a law keeping Rabbi, with his twelve Talmidim as a functional Minyan. The Jews know this and also see the foreign, pagan influences that have been absorbed by your church fathers. The apostate, power hungry church leaders of the first centuries saw the wonder, the glory, the majesty, the mighty power of the G-d of Israel and lusted after its sacred fire. They, as it were, crept into the Temple, unawares, and stole it’s constant feature. They contrived to contain it, to hew it’s stones, to pervert it’s power and to harness the very Spirit of the Most High. When they found their error, they set out to destroy the true Temple. They left not a stone upon a stone in this construction of sacred truth, instead they built up a new temple and conglomerated a new and contrived writ to seal their authority.
The marriage with the Emperor was the crowning jewel of their ascendance. Please remember these facts are well known by your Jewish brothers. Yet you who historically have been a curse to the children of HaShem, you, who have burned, sacked, beheaded and defamed His people in every conceivable way, stand before Him saying, “Brother, Jesus the g-d has suffered and died to set you free from the law”. The Law? The Law He gave to Moses to set His people free? See your error before you are crushed by its guilt.
If the one you are holding up is true as you believe him to be, he must then stand your scrutiny. Dig out the man from the myth and then you may present him, whole, as the pivotal stone which the builders did reject, who himself is that stone, cut without hands, who will crush and bring to nothing all the man contrived power centers and rule over planet earth with the Law as given to Moses.
I love my Jew hat and wear it humbly.
Seeker wrote:
You could say that, but you would be wrong. HOmosexuality is associated with higher rates of depression, substance abuse, disease, domestic violence, unstable relationships, and suicide, EVEN AFTER you correct for social stigma.
Is this your personal belief? Or do you actually have some peer reviewed, scientific data, to back up your outrageous claims?
Besides, with “holier than thou” people like yourself spewing your vile hatred towards LGBT people, it’s no wonder that LGBT people would resort to greater amounts of drugs and alcohol to try to cope with your idiocy!
Assuming of course that your facts and figures stand up to scientific scrutiny.
I get what you Christians are trying to say. I understand you. I think the main problem with people is that we don’t understand one another and refuse to. It’s easy to dismiss all people who criticize homosexuality as bigots, but some of them are geniunely doing what they believe is right and want to save our souls from what they perceive as sin. Just let us live. Let us take the gamble. No one really knows without a doubt that their religion is the right one. I’m taking a gamble because I believe differently than you. If I’m wrong and you are right, let me face the consequences. You are right, I didn’t choose to be gay, but I did choose to stay that way because I believe that there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. I believe, I don’t know. I just have this gut feeling that I’m right. I may not be, but I believe I am. I have faith. I have faith in the path I chose, faith that I am a good person who screws up just like everyone else, and I have faith in my (non-Christian) religion. If the true nature of the Divine is as you say, so be it. I believe that your God’s view of homosexuality is wrong. I believe with all my heart that your God is wrong about us. If I am able, I will say it to your God, with all the humility, respect, and love owed to my Creator. Of course, that is not how I view the Divine. Faith is basically just a gamble. It’s basically live this way and believe this thing and hope that you’re right. I’m not Christian and my religion finds nothing wrong with being gay. That’s not the only reason I follow it, but it is one of them. Let us communicate and understand one another. How is, without using any religious material, homosexuality harmful? If you use scientific claims, please make sure your source is credible and truly objective. Understand me, understand that I am gay. That I believe that I am loved and accepted for who I am by my Creator. That this love is unconditional, as a parent loves a child, as a lover loves the beloved, as a friend loves a friend. To me, the Divine is Love. I believe homosexuality is, at its core, about love. I love men. I love everything about them. In my eyes, men are the most beautiful things in existence. Know that my love is true and real. It sends sparks down my spine, flowing through every nerve in my body, so it pulses with wild ecstasy. I would never want to lose this love because it has become such an integral part of me that trying to change it would be like losing all my senses at once. That is why I choose to stay gay. It is beautiful. It is magical. It is sacred.
I am in love.
Seeker, as Jesus said to Peter: “Get behind me, Satan! You are thinking not as God does, but as humans do.” You obviously posted only half of your screen name, “ATTENTION-seeker.” Your inane diatribe is intended to serve no purpose other than to rile up good people who are striving to come together to root out the hypocrites and liars that dare to twist the word of God. You continue to post flaming comments on this site, then post links to your own site–which I wouldn’t touch with a proverbial ten-foot pole, thank you very much–as reference! This circular reasoning is proof beyond doubt that you are indeed an attention-seeking nut in need of serious psychological help. You really need to start making more contact with humans instead of your keyboard. As for all of your purposely inflammatory “religious” and “scientific” babbling: “Rubbish! You have no power here. Begone, before somebody drops a house on you, too!” Now excuse us while the rest of us ignore you, even if you continue to vent hot air on this helpful site.
On a serious note, I want to remind all gay children contemplating suicide–indeed, anyone contemplating suicide because of difficulties he or she has encountered from others regarding one’s sexuality–that there are many more out there–gay and straight–who will understand you, support you, and love you. Reach out and find us. God created you this way, and He loves you as you are. Yes, there are hurtful people in this world, and unfortunately, some of them are parents, other relatives, neighbors, and ignorant people. But there are countless others who are working to make this a better world for everyone. You are every bit as important, as natural, and as NORMAL as everyone else. Don’t let anyone EVER tell you otherwise!
serenity wrote:
… It’s easy to dismiss all people who criticize homosexuality as bigots, but some of them are geniunely doing what they believe is right and want to save our souls from what they perceive as sin.
Yes, they want to do everything they can to “save our souls” from sin, even if it kills us!
seeker wrote:
No, I am speaking what I believe to be true, not to mention biblical. I don’t want power, but I do want to protect my children from hurt people…
Protect your children from “hurt” people?
Apparently, you don’t “personally” know that many gay, lesbian, bi-sexual or transgendered people. Perhaps all you know about LGBT people is just what you’ve heard about us through your bible and fellow congregants or what you’ve seen about us in the media? I.E. Jerry Springer?
Or maybe the few “token” LGBT people you have come in contact with were extremely “hurt” because of growing up in an environment similar to yours. I.E. religious based bigotry.
I “personally” know more people that are heterosexual and “hurt” vs. LGBT and NOT HURT! They are close friends of mine and they don’t care one bit that I’m gay. If you were to look at my life vs. theirs, you would conclude that their lives are way more screwed up than mine.
How powerful.
What I want to mention is that Bible thumpers always mention that homosexuality is a sin…but they never mention that the Bible also mentions compassion, mercy, and non judgement. Why does these kinds of people “forget” or over look that part of the Bible? Apparently these people think that vengence is the “norm” too, or they wouldn’t tease, mock, attack, or sneer then have the the nerve to call it moral.
Go figure.
Aeni, the Bible says judge not. Second, Seeker hasn’t harassed anyone here. If anything, you have ganged up on him/her. You have sneered, mocked, teased, and attacked him/her. Why don’t you show any compassion for his/her ignorance like Jesus did. It would seem that those on Christ’s side would be the ones to act most like him.
And now for MY bit…
Why did Christ die? Why would he have to, if God was nonjudgmental and inclusive of all peoples regardless of lifestyle? If you’ve ever read a Bible (and I suspect you have not) you know that “‘I hate sin,’ saith the Lord.” The reason for the sacrifice was not to legitimize our sins, but to justify us before God regardless of our sin. We are expected to improve ourselves though, and accepting the natural order and trying to conform ourselves to is is part of the program. The truth is that you know nothing about Christianity or Christ. You take quotes you read on a website and rattled them off here. I dare you to read Mere Christianity. Jut read the first chapter. God loves everyone, loves us so much He came to take our sins upon himself and die in our place. Even gays. But you can’t take that you have to first be a sinner to be saved. Is Fred Phelps an ass? Amen, I’m right there with you. I will NOT JUDGE the quality of a person’s character. That is God’s job. For all I know, most gays are decent people that live their lives. Bless ‘em. But to automatically assume that because you’re gay that God has changed his code is arrogance beyond belief.
I am not sure if the moderator is allowing any more of my comments through (their prerogative), but here’s a couple of related articles I wrote that address comments/questions people addressed to me here:
The Myth of Homosexual Monogamy
Legal liability of schools that teach a pro-homosexuality curriculum (because of the scientific evidence for increased morbidity and mortality associated with homosexuality)
Characteristics of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender individuals entering substance abuse treatment
In terms of psychopathology, LGBT clients took psychotropic medications in twice the proportion of heterosexual clients. As far as domestic violence, openly LGBT were significantly more likely to be victims of domestic violence than the heterosexual population. In terms of overall health care utilization, LGBT individuals more frequently sought services than heterosexual individuals. When it came to interfacing with the legal system, however, heterosexuals were more likely to have legal involvements than LGBTS clients.
In conclusion, the researchers state “Although theses findings cannot resolve the question of why LGBT individuals might abuse substances, the results point to a pattern of more severe problems among openly LGBT clients than among heterosexual clients.” (p. 144).
Half of Gay Men May Not Reach Age 65, Says Journal of Epidemiology
Still think there is no risk to telling our children that being gay is no riskier than being hetero? Think twice.
Does Childhood Sexual Abuse
Influence Later Sexual Orientation?
A 2001 study in the Archives of Sexual Behavior utilizes a non-clinical sample of 942 adults to compare rates of childhood molestation between heterosexuals and non-heterosexuals.
The authors found that 46% of homosexuals and 22% of lesbian women reported homosexual molestation in childhood. This compared to childhood homosexual molestation rates of only 7% of heterosexual men and 1% of heterosexual women.
The authors review substantial previous research which also found a link between homosexuality and a history of childhood sexual abuse. Their own research is apparently the first survey, the authors say, “that has reported substantial homosexual molestation of girls.” The female victims had a mean age of 13 at the time of the same-sex abuse, while the comparable group of abused boys had a mean age of 11.
The sample was especially useful for research purposes because it did not focus on dissatisfied homosexuals in therapy; in fact, 97% of the men were participating in a gay pride celebration at the time they participated in the survey interview.
Being a lesbian for as long as I can remember, yet like your son, was ridiculed because I liked doing boy stuff and not girly stuff. I used to ask my mom if I could be born again could I be born a boy. She always said yes. I had crushes on some of my girlfriends and to act “normal” I said I had crushes on certain boys. I was raped at 15 and 19. At 15 I lost my virginity to rape. At 19 I was in a heterosexual relationship and had secret crushes on girls in the gang. When I was 24 and had a miscarriage and the father left me at the hospital that’s when I came out of the closet for the 1st time. I was able to express my feelings to another woman and not feel weird about it. I was in and out of a relationship for 4 yrs. I moved in with my 1st lover. We were together a year and then I walked out on her for being abusive. I moved back home and crawled back into the closet til my 50th birthday this year on 3/1. I am out for good now and have no plans of every going back in to it except to get clothes to put on. I’m a lesbian and proud of it. I don’t care anymore what others think. So from the bottom of my heart I thank you for standing up for your son. My mom was ok with it as long as it wasn’t brought to her friends attention.
Lesley
Lesley, that is a horrific story. I am so sorry that your tomboy nature, which may not have been a Same Sex Attraction at all, was not embraced, but rather, rejected as out of the acceptable norm for a female.
I am also sorry that you had to suffer rape, miscarriage, and failed relationships, the worst of which seem to have been with men.
However, I do submit that your experiences may have caused you to reject men as objects of attraction, as well as rejected the false, overly narrow view of femininity that caused you ostracism.
Your experience elicits empathy and sensitivity, but we have to careful about what conclusions we draw from it - namely, we can’t make the false logical jump that just because you have suffered, that homosexuality is normal or OK.
It’s the old “appeal to poverty” or “appeal to pity” fallacy which could come into play - although, you did not really try to argue either way, it seems like you were just sharing your experience. But others may misinterpret your honesty as a justification of their view of homosexuality (as I too have done ;).
This letter was just one mother of a gay child, there are many that do not write to anyone about thier children. She did a very good thing and has been abused verbally for it. What I want to know is if there is only one judge (God) then why are all of you people abusing this woman? I am a proud lesbian and have no desire to be anything else, despite what you may or may not believe, and now you may also bash me, or not. But I know in my heart that God loves me as I talk to him everyday and ask for his approval and have recieved many blessings. So I will continue to talk to God and not worry about haters and bashers, it just gets tiring listening to people that think they know God. I do not know him nor do I profess to. What do profess to is praing to him and receiving his blessing.
Seeker,
I thought I was clear. As a lesbian I am proud of the mother who stood up for her son. While yes I was sharing my experiance, if God didn’t love homosexuals I would not exist. All I ever heard from my mom as to my tomboy image was “as she gets older she’ll grow out of it”. I was always one of the boys growing up we’d play football, baseball and basketball. I liked climbing trees and if I could today I still would. Yes any of those things that happened in the past could have turned me off men, however I knew growing up I was different. Just didn’t know how different I was. I have straight as well as gay friends. I don’t turn my nose up at the heteros. I don’t turn my back on them either. I just do not tolerate gays being bashed because they love the same sex and not the opposite. My heart goes out to that woman’s son. I’ve see3n a lot of hate in my day. Fortunately I was raised to view people for who they are not WHAT they are. I had the token black child in my elementary classes. I didn’t see him as such. I saw him as a warm kind human being. When I moved I got to see the hate. One of our “elite” football players thought it was funny to spray shaving cream all over one of the black players and say ” See now he’s one of us”. I knew that person and his brother who both played on the team and they were the nicest people I ever knew. One of the black girls I was very friendly with. I didn’t see them as black or white or green or yellow. They were human beings like you and I.
So you see the narrow mindedness of shallow people judge them for what they are not who they are. For them I feel sorry because they will never know what a good friend they/we can be. Because we’re gay or colored we are perceived as not normal. I say it’s the rest that aren’t normal because we don’t judge we accept for who you are. Yes there is a lot of racial tension in the world and who do we blame? Society because it’s either black or white no deviations of color. By the way I’m also Native American. Now there’s a real stigma. Native American and Gay. What was God Thinking? He was thinking I have created a beautiful and caring person willing to help anyone. What can he say about all you bashers? Not much. He loves us all so why can’t we all love one another and be happy? Because there is no utopia. So I hope I cleared things up for you if not we can continue another day.
You can argue the Bible all you want. However it’s a book that one group of people consider the center of their religion. My religion does not come out of this book. As an American I have the right to practice my own religious beliefs and should not be forces to follow yours. Our laws are not based on religious formats but on fairness, freedom and keeping a society safe. It is not taking your moral codes and demanding that I be forced to life within your religious beliefs. So when folks believe in the Koran, the book of Sciencetology, or the book of Mormon should they force you to accept their beliefs and the laws of the land be taken from those books?
I disagree with your religious beliefs, but I defend your defend your rights to believe them. I don’t defend your idea that the laws in this country should be based on a book you believe in. You can defend your book all you want, I will defend the right of this country to treat all citizens equal as our forefathers wrote it.
Seeker,
I was actually enjoying your very articulate defense of your religious beliefs. It is not often that critics of the “gay lifestyle” remain as cool headed in their vehement justifications of their personal beliefs against said lifestyle. That is, I was enjoying it until you stared pulling out “research” to back your claims. I wonder, have you personally read any of the articles you cite? Do you regularly make a practice out of misrepresenting research? It seems to be common practice among the anti-gay establishment. Just glimpsing through the articles myself I find nothing to support the claims you are making of them. Take for instance the Cochran and Cauce article “Characteristics of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender individuals…” Your claim is that the LGBT population is more prone to domestic violence, or is more likely to be victims of domestic violence than heterosexuals, and that in terms of overall health care utilization, LGBT more frequently seek services than heterosexuals but heterosexuals are more likely to have legal involvements. That is a broad generalization; however, this is only true for the sample population utilized in the study: a convenience sample of Washington State residents receiving publicly funded chemical rehabilitation funds. Any first year graduate student can tell you that comparisons to other populations (namely ALL homosexuals) can not be made from the sample utilized in the study because of its limited scope and selection parameters. The authors even state as much. “There are several limitations of this study that should be noted: the lack of random assignment to treatment agencies may have influenced differences in outcome, the population was only of publicly funded clients” (p. 145). Furthermore, the quote from page 144 is speaking directly about the sample population; i.e. the results point to a pattern of more severe problems among openly LBGT clients seeking publicly funded chemical rehabilitation funds in the State of Washington who, for the most part, were also twice as likely as heterosexuals to be homeless–but of course that is beside the point. Yet, I am surprised it is not included in more of the lists of reasons why the gay lifestyle is detrimental to ones well being: “homosexuals are at significantly greater risk of homelessness.”
OK, let me go through the rest of the articles you cite. “Long-term Gay Relationships” is sponsored and published by NARTH’s vanity journal. Enough said. I happen to know a great many monogamous gay couples in relationships greater than 10 years–more than can be counted on two hands even. So the claim of the article that monogamous gay relationships are impossibilities is simply preposterous. But knowing NARTH research practices tend to be less concerned with verifiable and repeatable data than they are with results that suite a specific political agenda, it is not surprising.
“Legal liability of schools…” Is this actually intended to support a claim of “research proves” such-and-such? It is purely speculative and opinion based.
“Half of gay men…” In 2001, Robert S. Hogg and the other authors of this study wrote the INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF EPIDEMIOLOGY (2001; 30:1493-1499) in which they said that any use of their research to prove that homosexuals have a shorter lifespan is incorrect. From the letter: “If we were to repeat this analysis today the life expectancy of gay and bisexual men would be greatly improved. … Death is a product of the way a person lives and what physical and environmental hazards he or she faces everyday. It cannot be attributed solely to their sexual orientation or any ethnic or social factor.” I would assume that in the six years following that letter the results would again be even more “greatly improved.”
“Does Childhood Sexual Abuse…” The figures you cite from the article come with a caution from the authors Marie E. Tomeo, et al., that “the differences between the molestation rate of homosexual and heterosexual participants have to be viewed with great caution because of the differences in the sampling methods for each population.” Surveys were distributed to a captive sample group in college classrooms on a Southern Californian university campus. The majority of the homosexual respondents came from a gay pride parade in the same Southern Californian area. “It must also be borne in mind that the present homosexual participants may not be representative of homosexual persons” (p. 536) for reasons that have already been explained above. The rest of the “substantial” research come in the form of a literature review in which Marie E. Tomeo, et al., explain that the previous research is flawed because “Not all of the cited studies employed a heterosexual control group, specified the criteria of molestation, specified the gender of the perpetrator, specified the present sexual preference, and that before molestation, and employed gay men and lesbians participants” (p. 536).
I would appreciate in the future that you be personally knowledgeable of the articles you cite rather than parroting oft incorrectly represented research drawn from hate groups’ talking points and propaganda; groups such as NARTH, Focus on the Family, Exodus International, etc.
“the differences between the molestation rate of homosexual and heterosexual participants have to be viewed with great caution because of the differences in the sampling methods for each population” (p. 539). Forgot the citation, sorry.
I have thought long and hard about this and would like SEEKER to answer me on this one.
Why did our lord God create gay and straight people?
If we are such an abomination to god why do we exist?
Why do “you” hate us so much?
How do we”the gay people of the world” threaten the welfare of the world?
I truly want to understand why you think the way you do?
Best regards,
Vanyel
I agree with Michael. We should focus our energies on the original objective of this post: let our gay kids know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that this world is changing fast, and that very soon all of these bigots will have to pay the piper. Most recently: Senator Larry Craig!
The first step towards wisdom is the phrase “I do not know”. Given the impossibility of knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that your religion is true, I ask you why you feel like you should force other people to follow your doctrines? What I really dislike is people speaking for God or whatever created us as if it was told to them personally. The Bible is a book belonging to a specific religion. I do not accept the Bible is the Word of God and you cannot prove that it is. I believe that the Bible was written by people, some of whom my have had political, personal, or whatever agendas. So until the Creator Himself (or Herself) tells me point blank, face to face, from His (Her) mouth, that homosexuality is wrong, I will continue my life as I want it. I think speaking for something as absolute and unknowable as the Divine is arrogance beyond belief.
LESLEY WROTE: if God didn�t love homosexuals I would not exist.
God loves all of us, even though we are all sinners. Murderers and adulters exist too, and God loves them, but that doesn’t mean that he approves of their behaviors or bad choices.
God didn’t make you that way, you were largely formed by your negative environment, and responded to it with a dysfucntion that helped preserve you from the forces trying to destroy you. Even if god makes a person atypical for their gender (aggressive women, gentle boys), that doesn’t mean they are attracted to the same sex, except as a negative reaction to their own or the other gender.
JIM WROTE: As an American I have the right to practice my own religious beliefs and should not be forces to follow yours.
No one is disagreeing with you.
Our laws are not based on religious formats but on fairness, freedom and keeping a society safe.
That’s really a half truth. Our nation is not just built on reason and limited government, but upon biblical principles, and one could quote mine the founders all day long to support such a contention, but here’s just one:
“The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity� I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.” — John Adams, 2nd President of the U.S.
But I agree, laws are made based, not upon religious dogma, but upon the common ethic of what’s good for society and it’s individuals - as expressed in the contitution - to “establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity.”
JIM WROTE: I don�t defend your idea that the laws in this country should be based on a book you believe in.
I partially agree with you, but, like the founders, give special pleading to the Judeo Christian principles because we believe them to be accurate.
JOHN WROTE: this is only true for the sample population utilized in the study: a convenience sample of Washington State residents receiving publicly funded chemical rehabilitation funds.
True, it is only one study, and perhaps it would have been more accurate to say that “among those accessing help for chemical rehab, gays and lesbians present with more serious problems.” So while this only shows that among that subpopulation, gays and lesbians are worse off, it does not, as you point out, say that gays and lesbians have more problems than heteros in general. My bad. However, I can, of course, find research that supports that contention as well.
JIM WROTE: Long-term Gay Relationships� is sponsored and published by NARTH�s vanity journal.
Hmm, I did not know that. Does that make their data invalid, or just suspect?
Legal liability of schools Is this actually intended to support a claim of research proves such-and-such? It is purely speculative and opinion based.
So it is. You can take issue with that if you want. But for gays to say that their case is open and shut is about as ingenous as my saying that the anti-gay case is.
My point is that homosexuality is still of questionable moral value, and government should NOT condone it, nor criminalize it, but remain neutral.
I would appreciate in the future that you be personally knowledgeable of the articles you cite rather than parroting oft incorrectly represented research drawn from hate groups� talking points and propaganda;
I certainly will, mostly because I believe that such claims are largely accurate, and I want better evidence to support my contentions. Thanks for your mostly kind tone.
seeker
I’m glad you’re having a field day on my so called negative environment. Obviously you still can’t read correctly. I said I knew I ws different from other girls long before I was 15. You really need to READ all of it and not just what you want to bash.
Judge not lest ye be judged! I just hope someday you come to realize that there are some real nice people from all walks of life. The hatred in this country is awful. Blacks hate whites, whites hate redskins, except for football, the all “elite” bashers of all mankind hate everyone. I am a child of God and I love all human kind. I might not like everyone, yet I love everyone. Love others as you love yourself and if you don’t love yourself then you are incapable of loving anything or anyone.
VANYEL WROTE: I would like SEEKER to answer me on this one. Why did our lord God create gay and straight people?
Wow, usually in forums like this, I am asked to shut up. Maybe you will want to write that after this reply
But as a caveat to those who don’t see the Bible as authoratative, I am not asking you to believe it because the bible says so. I am rather appealing to reason, using scripture as a guide. If you don’t buy the assumptions or logic, fine with me. But I am NOT appealing to religious authority.
Biblically speaking (i.e. I am trying to relate to you what I believe the scriptures teach, not just my opinion), I would divide your question up into more than one question, but I’ll keep it brief.
The short answer is that God created us male and female, and God created mankind with purity, but mankind corrupted himself:
Ecclesiastes 7:29
But I did find this: God created people to be virtuous, but they have each turned to follow their own downward path.
So even if people are BORN with abnormalities, it is not that God created them that way, but that sin and sickness and death have damaged the gene pool. Therefore, not every condition, including homosexuality, can be justified even if it has a genetic component. Just because somone has a tendency towards aggression or promiscuity doesn’t justify such behaviors as “normal” or intended by God.
I would further argue that God did not make homosexuals, but considering that homosexuality is probably largely environmental in nature and not genetic, I would say that it is more likely a developmental dysfunction. So if by the phrase “God made homosexuals,” you mean “God made us this way, therefore he intended it,” I would argue that just because we are all born sinners does not mean that is what is what God desires or intends.
Further, since I believe homosexuality to be largely environmental in origin, God did not make homosexuals, but rather, the sinful environment caused emotional trauma which LED to homosexual identity.
If we are such an abomination to god why do we exist?
Homosexuals are not an abomination, homosexuals are people made in the image of God, and like the rest of us, sinful as well. Homosexual *desires and actions* are abominable, as are other sinful actions that heteros engage in. I suggest reading Is man basically good or evil? for the biblical view of man’s nature.
To some extent, it is immature reasoning that equates the moral judgment of an *action* with disapproval of one’s person. When I correct my children, I am quick to let them know that I love THEM, but their actions were displeasing to me.
I let them know the difference, because a child can experience correction as an attack on their being and person, not just a corrective action meant to guide them. With homosexuality, I understand that it is rooted so deeply in the psyche that condemning SSAs as wrong seems like a rejection of your person. However, we affirm that such attractions are NOT the true self, but a defense mechanism that separated you from your gender and the corresponding OSA, and this true self which you are separated from is still waiting for affirmation and development.
Why do you hate us so much?
There are two issues here. First, many Christians and anti-gays are insecure, immature people who delight in ridiculing and condemning others due to their insecurity. Can’t justify that at all. But not all gay opposition is of this sort, even if gay advocates like to paint it as such.
Second, as I’ve described in What is hate?, moral disapproval is not hate. To characterize it as such is to dumb down the conversation, abuse the language, and basically be guilty of ad hominem attacks rather than employing reason and civil respect.
While you may experience opposition to your legislative and social efforts as hate, most opposition, especially Christian opposition, is not hate.
How do we the gay people of the world threaten the welfare of the world?
The short answer is, to some extent, what we all do in our private sexual worlds is our own business, and really affects no one. But when we push our atypical habits and perspectives on others, we must then be ready to defend our legislative efforts as “healthy for society.”
And the fact is, studies show that atypical families, including single parent homes, gay parent homes, and most other non-hetero homes (that have love), are sub-optimal for child development, and by extension, are bad for society.
So, should we make single parent homes illegal? No one is pushing for such. However, we also acknowledge that this is NOT the natural, preferred setup. Not for the individual, not for the child, and not for society.
We say the same about gay parenting. We don’t want to make it illegal, but neither do we want to establish it as a normal variant when it is clearly abnormal - I mean, even nature shows that gays can not produce children under any normal circumstances (please don’t bring up the infertile couple argument - we consider infertility an unnatural problem to be solved anyway, and an exception to the rule, while the rule for gay couples is - nature can NEVER produce children to a gay couple).
There is a second reason why normalizing homosexuality may be bad for society. If it is a dysfunction, with higher associations with other mental illnesses such as depression, suicide, domestic violence, and substance abuse, then calling it a normal healthy variant is a LIE, and lies always damage society and individuals.
I think of my friends who are now ex-gay and living happily - what if they had believed that they were doomed to be victims of their SSA for the rest of their lives? Maybe THAT hopelessness contributes to suicide among gays!
If we promote unhealth as health, people suffer, and so does all of society, because we’ve now established a pattern of conclusions based, not on science, natural and moral reasoning, and relatively trustworthy historical and religious traditions, but upon politics and self-deception that originates in man’s desire to justify sin, which is his nature.
I truly want to understand why you think the way you do
OK, there you go. Again, Christians probably could do better bringing grace and kindness into the equation even if they believe that the TRUTH is that homosexuality is a dysfunction and a sin. But no amount of kindness in delivering such a message can stop the accustations of hate from people bent on disagreeing with such a message.
And science is somewhat inconclusive on the causes and possible associated problems with homosexuality, though it is not silent. In the meantime, I think that government should remain neutral on the subject, neither condoning (through redefining marriage) nor criminalizing (e.g. sodomy laws) homosexuality.
Encouraging kids to explore such sins, or telling them that such unhealthy choices are healthy or normative almost certainly will cause damage, and while the jury is out, it is irreponsible to teach such things.
Seeker, you said:
” I do want to protect my children from hurt people who want to influence my kids towards such unhealthy self-concepts and unnatural sexuality.”
Something I don’t get, seeker, is why all of you “Christians” seem to equate homosexuality with your children. Let me try and POUND this into your thick skull:
GAY PEOPLE DO NOT WANT TO “TURN” YOUR CHILDREN GAY. THEY DO NOT WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOUR CHILDREN. GAY PEOPLE TO NOT “RECRUIT” OTHERS TO MAKE THEM GAY. GAY PEOPLE ARE NOT PEDOPHILES.
I’m sick of all you holier than thou “christians” saying things like this. Gay people are all about family. We’d LOVE to have families. The problem is that people like you who are so convinced of your moral superiority would deny us any and all rights to be married, have children, even exist. Fundamentalists are the reason one of our friends has the life he does. His “christian” parents threw him out on the street when he was 17, just because he’s gay. He had no education, no money, no place to live, no food. And so, he did the only thing he could, and for a while, sold himself for food, and shelter, and clothing. He now has HIV, and he lives with that every day, all because he parents, who are supposed to LOVE and support him, decided he wasn’t their son anymore. There’s a special place in hell for people like that. You tell me. is THAT christian? I don’t think so. You’re NOT following the teachings of Christ. You’re following the teaching of Paul, one of the most bitter, angry, bigoted human beings ever to walk this earth.
You may dress like a Christian, but the similarity ends there.
I’m glad you’re having a field day on my so called negative environment. Obviously you still can’t read correctly. I said I knew I ws different from other girls long before I was 15.
My impression is that you were picked on for being different. That’s the negative environment I was referring to. Additionally, being raped is part of a negative environment.
Judge not lest ye be judged!
Back atcha - you assumed the worst - I was not insinuating anything in particular that you had not mentioned, like a bad father or passive mother, or merely parents that failed to affirm your personality, though that could be the case. My generic descriptor was meant to describe all and anything negative in your upbringing, esp. the many things you have already mentioned.
Again, my working assumption is that, though you were different, you weren’t gay. However, in being different from gender norms, coupled with your negative experiences, I suggest that your SSA and gay identity arose AS A RESPONSE to these things, and that THAT difference was not part of your natural temperament differences.
I just hope someday you come to realize that there are some real nice people from all walks of life.
I never said you weren’t a nice person. I was a nice person when I was an unrepentant sinner. My gay friends and acquaintances are, by and large, nice people. People with dysfunctions can be nice. What is being discussed here is the normality of such an identity, and all I am saying is that I believe that science, nature, and scripture agree that homosexuality is abnormal, unhealthy for individuals and their children, and immoral.
The hatred in this country is awful.
Again, moral disagreement or condemnation is not hate. Are you hating me by declaring my positions wrong and immoral? I stand by my defense of such moral stands, and their difference from hate, as outlined in What is Hate?
I am a child of God and I love all human kind.
That is a nice sentiment, but as you may be aware, scripture talks about two kinds of “children of God.” In one sense, we are all precious because we are made in God’s image. However, Jesus spoke in a sense that only those who have faith in Him are children of God, while others are children of wrath and darkness - as it says in the following passages, which speak of being born again:
Love others as you love yourself and if you don’t love yourself then you are incapable of loving anything or anyone.
I totally agree, as you can hear in my sermon entitled Finding God’s Call III - A Biblical view of self-love. But love devoid of truth is not really love, and the missing truth here is that homosexuality can be healed, and is not healthy or natural.
GAY PEOPLE DO NOT WANT TO TURN YOUR CHILDREN GAY.
I don’t need pounding, I already agree with that. But perhaps you do not understand where I am coming from.
As soon as you legally sanction gay marriage, you will BY LAW have to teach acceptance of homosexuality in schools (although this travesty is already occurring). Also, this will open up legal challenges to churche that refuse to do gay weddings.
You see, public policy reaches beyond just you and me. It affects our schools, our legal system, and a host of other things - such a redefinition of marriage has huge impact on other things in our society, INCLUDING how our kids view such behaviors.
So when I say “making gay marriages the law of the land” affects our kids, you hear all that pedophile stuff, eh? I’ll make a note of that, but that’s not what I am saying at all.
However, bringing in speakers like they did in Colarado Springs recently, speakers who encouraged students to experiment with same sex and opposite sex promiscuity, not to mention drug use, is tantamount to recruitment - at least, call it conditioning. But I’m not claiming any kind of recruitment, and have never used that word.
I�m sick of all you holier than thou christians saying things like this.
Good thing I never said it, then
We�d LOVE to have families.
Then you better blame God or nature for you inability to reproduce! The unnaturalness of your affections could not be any clearer!
His christian parents threw him out on the street when he was 17, just because he�s gay. He had no education, no money, no place to live, no food.
There is a difference between moral disapproval/disagreement, and what you do in response. Perhaps those parents responded improperly, but that doens’t mean that their moral stance on the issue was wrong.
For instance, gay advocates love to compare the Christian disapproval of hx to that of Islamists, as if they are “scarily” similar. But the difference is, what do we do when someone breaks such a moral law? Call for their beheading? Not at all, because moral disapproval is not cruelty, but our response can be cruel.
You and I both agree that stealing is wrong, but guess what? So do Islamists. Is there therefore no difference between us? Only if you are simpleminded or intellectually dishonest. So Islamists want to cut off hands, but that doesn’t make the prohibition on stealing improper.
Your might, therefore, have a justifiable case against people whose response to gays is disproportionately cruel, insensitive, or unwise, but that is not argument against the moral stance taken - that’s my response to your trotting out this example.
He now has HIV, and he lives with that every day, all because he parents, who are supposed to LOVE and support him, decided he wasn�t their son anymore.
The fact is, we all experience negative things. His parents may have kicked him out, but they didn’t force him to sell his body - the unfortunate fact is, HE is responsible for his actions, esp. at age 17, and HE is the one who contracted HIV. They didn’t give it to him. Again, they may share some blame for his dire situation, but he is not without blame as well.
You�re NOT following the teachings of Christ. You�re following the teaching of Paul, one of the most bitter, angry, bigoted human beings ever to walk this earth.
Don’t forget, Jesus talked a lot about hell, and not just for the self-righteous religious, but for everyone who fails to believe him.
If you are really interested in following the teachings of Christ, you might want to read John Piper’s What Jesus Demands from the World, in which he lists more than the easy to love “love your neighbor” commands, such as (from the table of contents):
Jesus demands:
1. You must be born again
2. You must repent
3. You must come to me
4. You must believe in me
5. You must love me
6. You must listen to me
7. You must abide in me
8. You must take up your cross and follow me
9. You must love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength
10. You must rejoice
11. You must fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell
12. You must worship God in spirit and truth
13. You must always pray and not lose heart
14. You must not be anxious about the necessities of daily life
15. You must not be anxious about the threats of man
16. You must huble yourself by making a war on pride
17. You must huble yourself in childlikeness, servanthood, and brokenhearted boldness
18. You must not be angry, but trust God
19. You must not be angry, but embrace mercy and forgiveness
20. You must be justified by trusting Jesus
21. You must be transformed by trusting Jesus
22. You must stive to enter through the narrow door
23. You must love your enemies
And on it goes for many more chapters.
You may dress like a Christian, but the similarity ends there.
So, I am not perfect, but what in particular do you accuse me of, besides not being what you want? Failing to love? I have told you the truth in the most non-abusive manner I can. You call that hate. I say you are mistaken. Your stooping to such simple ad hominems is not useful, except that it allows you to feel good about insulting me.
Ha Ha Ha Seeker is playing “Devils” Advocate. Satan = Devil = Adversary
Seeker why are you here?
This is a GREAT web site for “Families” granted not like yours.
(Or not like what you think your family is)
The problem is I think that you love to get us up n’ arms over something the will be a moot point in 5 or fewer years.
There will and should be gay marriage in the USA.
One of the biggest tenets of marriage is to procreate? God told us to go forth and multiply. Right? And with so many gay people are doing just that, as this site shows we are starting to create our own families. (Go us!)
I think that the abomination theory gets tossed right out the window at this point.
I think that us as gay people wanting to be normal settle down start families “Our way” and live happy lives threatens some people to their very core. “Why?” we as people have innate drive to be needed and wanted. So this might be one of the many reasons some of the people out there are so against us. We no longer rely on them to create people we are and have been doing it for years.
If we could marry, some strait people think we might show them up.
I know of a gay couple that are more committed to their 35 year old relationship than most strait people I know, that end up getting divorce after 5 or so years. I think with a 50%+ divorce rate out there, we can do better and be for more committed to or lives if only for the fact that we gave up so much to be where we are.
Why on this green earth would anyone choose to be GAY, with all the crap that is out there? Heck I’d wished I was strait for years and prayed for god to change me. I guess I didn’t pray hard enough. No one chooses to be strait just as no one chooses to be gay. We just are.
So seeker what is the problem with gay people?
I want to vote seeker off the island. (Just kidding) We need seeker to keep us sharp and ready for the cruel reality that is our world.
So in closing I’d like to say thanks to Seeker for the exercise and education he and all our friends gave us. This has been one of the best threads I’ve read in a long time. Keep up the research and learning. That is the only way to fight back the powers of ignorance.
Till later days,
Vanyel
One of the biggest tenets of marriage is to procreate?
More strictly speaking, the purpose of romantic and sexual coupling is oneness as nature (and God) intends, and children are part of that. The romantic coupling and sex of homosexuals yields no children, and by logicl extension, is unnatural.
And as I said, healthy children need both genders, and not just some nice uncle or aunt to fill in the unnatural missing gender in gay couples.
Seeker why are you here?
I stumbled upon this article, and thought to comment on something someone said.
There will and should be gay marriage in the USA.
Perhaps, but that would not be good for America, and may cement it’s downward moral spiral.
. We no longer rely on them to create people we are and have been doing it for years. If we could marry, some strait people think we might show them up.
That’s an interesting theory, and I’ve never heard or considered it before. But I’ll save you the trouble. Loving gay homes may be better than unloving hetero homes. But children of gay parents are more likely to be gay, and this is in part because they fail in their own gender devlopment, becuase they are missing one gender of parent, and are presented a warped and unhealthy example of gender development.
we can do better and be for more committed to or lives if only for the fact that we gave up so much to be where we are.
OK.
Why on this green earth would anyone choose to be GAY, with all the crap that is out there?
As I have explained, people don’t choose their self-defensive dysfunctions and coping mechanisms, esp. when they have roots in gender issues that start as early as age 2-4. What we CAN choose to do is do the inner work of healing to abandon our issues.
and prayed for god to change me. I guess I didn�t pray hard enough. No one chooses to be strait just as no one chooses to be gay. We just are.
Maybe. Or maybe you lacked the tools to do the healing work required - praying for God to change you does not absolve you of doing the work you are resopnsible for.
So seeker what is the problem with gay people?
They are injured and dysfunctional. But that’s not the real problem, plenty of heteros are like that too. But gays are attempting to normalize their illness, force the rest of society to recognize it as normal, and in so doing, poisoning our children with their acceptance of such mental illness, not to mention the other associated sins that often accompany the gay lifestyle, esp. extraordinary promiscuos behavior among men.
We need seeker to keep us sharp and ready for the cruel reality that is our world.
Good, you should think through bogus arguments to identify whatever strong ones you might have.
Seeker,
I apologize if my tone was interpreted of hostile in my prior post. Nothing irks me more than research being appropriated for means for which it was not intended; especially if that research has not been fully contextualized or read. For me, it is tantamount to quoting me as saying “I hate chocolate” when in fact I said “I hate chocolate with cherry filling.” I would assume that is it the same for you when it comes to Biblical Scripture.
That being said: “The purpose of romantic and sexual coupling is oneness as nature (and God) intends, and children are part of that. The romantic coupling and sex of homosexuals yields no children, and by logicl [sic] extension, is unnatural.” This argument begs the question of what is “natural.” Is it natural because G-d deems it so, or is it natural because it occurs in nature which is also of G-d’s creation? But it would also seem to suggest that heterosexual coupling by those who do not wish to have children or infertile are also “unnatural.”
As for the “dysfunctions” you repeatedly site, this “research” stems mostly from that of Howard Becker, Joseph Nicolosi, Charles Socarides and their colleagues. Joseph Nicolosi and Charles Socarides are founders of NARTH. It is their assertion that homosexuals have “gender-identity deficit” caused by an alienation from, and perceived rejection by, their same-sexed parent and identification with their non-sexed parent. It is also their assertion that these individuals are less mentally stable, or developed, than their heterosexual counterparts. The overriding error in all their research is that their study subjects were selected from their own patients who were already in treatment for various psychiatric problems–including dissatisfaction with their own sexual identities. There was no control group of persons who “neither came for psychological help nor were found in mental hospitals, disciplinary barracks in the Armed Services, or in prison populations” (Hooker, E. “The Adjustment of the Male Overt Homosexual”). Now granted, there have been several who have found fault with Hooker’s own sample selection processes, but the fact remains, her research has been subsequently repeated by other researchers; Becher’s, et al., however, has not. Charles Socarides’ (one of the fathers of this line of research) son is openly gay. Which make one wonder, if homosexual identity is brought about because a failure in the development of the child, what was Mr. Socarides doing wrong?
Now, I will never attempt to argue against your personal religious ideology because I feel it to be a fruitless endeavor: faith is immovable by reasoned didactions (faith is by its very nature unreasonable by the strictest definitions of “reason”). But let me remind you, yours is not the only ideology built around Christ. Indeed there are five major denominations (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglican and Protestant) which each have subtle, and sometimes significant, differences in their ideological views. Within these majors there are also many sub-denominations each claiming to “know” the true G-d. I spent a great number of years studying theology only to become frustrated with the orthodox corruption of scripture–the way in which minor alterations are made to scripture to clarify one word or another through copying and translation updates since the time of their original writing thusly altering the original intent of the author. Ultimately I have to err with Saint Augustine who once issued a warning to preachers who were driven to preach about God: “If you can understand it,” he said, “then it is not God.”
This revelation, of course, does nothing to address your certainty that homosexuality corrupts the moral fabric of our society. Yet I have a hard time believing that any responsible organization would ever “[encourage] students to experiment with same sex and opposite sex promiscuity, not to mention drug use.” Your assertion that “As soon as you legally sanction gay marriage, you will BY LAW have to teach acceptance of homosexuality in schools” is a little problematic for me. I don’t happen to think that teaching tolerance is necessarily a bad thing, do you? I mean, I would hope that I am reasonably tolerant of ideologies that are not my own. As far as “Also, this will open up legal challenges to churche [sic] that refuse to do gay wedding,” there is this little thing in our constitution called the First Amendment that separates the church from the state and has withstood countless challenges that would force religious organizations to admit persons who do not adhere to the specific religious ideologies of said organization; although many socially conservative leaders seem to forget that. Regardless, these arguments seem eerily reminiscent of the anti-miscegenation debates of the last century. Mixing of the races in marriage and socialization was also charged with heralding the downfall of modern society and supported by invoking racist interpretations of the Bible. I have yet to hear the trumpets of the horsemen however.
“But children of gay parents are more likely to be gay, and this is in part because they fail in their own gender devlopment [sic], becuase [sic] they are missing one gender of parent, and are presented a warped and unhealthy example of gender development.” I have never seen a study which finds that children raised by homosexual parents are more likely to be homosexuals themselves. If there is one, I would like to read it and would appreciate if you could reference it. For the most part, however, (I want to be careful not to essentialize) homosexual persons are produced only from heterosexual unions. By extension, your argument would also suggest that children raised in single-parent HETEROSEXUAL households would also be in greater danger of “becoming” homosexual if the custodial parent was opposite-sexed.
Religious arguments aside, for reasons noted above, it just appears to me that rest of your arguments are unquantifiable and do not withstand logical scrutiny.
Seeker “The romantic coupling and sex of homosexuals yields no children, and by logical extension, is unnatural.”
Answer - We have found a loop hole around that. This site proves that we can procreate and have healthy lives.
Seeker “And as I said, healthy children need both genders, and not just some nice uncle or aunt to fill in the unnatural missing gender in gay couples.”
Answer - LIES oh man What a LIE, Seeker Please explain to all the single parent kids without dads or moms from divorce, death or abandonment why they are going to be gay. What about all the kids that are orphans? Nope that argument doesn’t hold water at all. Try again.
Seeker “Perhaps, but that would not be good for America, and may cement its downward moral spiral.”
Answer - Downward moral spiral ummmm just because we want to settle down and start a Legal and committed family? The way I see it we as a gay culture are going up and maturing and what to settle down. Why is this wrong?
Seeker “But children of gay parents are more likely to be gay, and this is in part because they fail in their own gender development, because they are missing one gender of parent, and are presented a warped and unhealthy example of gender development”
Answer - Why are you always wrong on these matters? There is no proof, nothing out there that shows that to be a true statement at all. If anything there is tons of proof that we as kids of strait people can and do create gay people.
(Hi mom and Dad, Love ya!)
Seeker “They are injured and dysfunctional. But that’s not the real problem; plenty of heteros are like that too. But gays are attempting to normalize their illness, force the rest of society to recognize it as normal, and in so doing, poisoning our children with their acceptance of such mental illness, not to mention the other associated sins that often accompany the gay lifestyle, esp. extraordinary promiscuous behavior among men.”
Answer - We are as normal as rain and so are you seeker. Ah yes the “Gay Lifestyle” well as with the advent of the AIDS epidemic we in the “Gay Lifestyle” are learning our lessons and starting to realize and grow up. We have learned that being in a committed relationship and settling down will stop this “Gay Lifestyle” and all the problems associated with it.
Thanks seeker this was fun!
Vanyel
seeker wrote:
… But children of gay parents are more likely to be gay, and this is in part because they fail in their own gender devlopment, becuase they are missing one gender of parent, and are presented a warped and unhealthy example of gender development.
Since I see no reference to case studies or research used by you to reach this conclusion, is this your personal opinion? Or do you actually have some credible facts, figures and peer reviewed studies to backup your outlandish claims?
Sorry all I had some amendments to make. I was excited and mistyped.
*Answer - Downward moral spiral ummmm just because we want to settle down and start a Legal and committed family? The way I see it we as a gay culture are growing up and maturing and what to settle down. Why is this wrong?
*Answer - Why are you always wrong on these matters? There is no proof, nothing out there that shows that to be a true statement at all. If anything there is tons of proof that we as kids of strait people. That strait people can and do create gay people.
(Hi mom and Dad, Love ya!)
Vanyel
Hey are you having as much fun as I am going back and forth with Seeker? I look forward to the emails to see what’s new on the misinformed seeker’s list. I just love people that quote the Bible yet really don’t understand the 10 Commandments. I have sinned in the past and in ‘98 God forgave all my sins. In 2001 I was baptized. But wait I’m a lesbian, and therefore still a sinner. Oh and a Native American Lesbian to boot. Oh what will God do with me now? My oh my!!! What a dilemma I’m in. LOL. Have a great day and God Bless you.
Lesley
Yes, Seeker is cool to debate,
Seeker believes what Seeker believes and we will never change that.
What we can do is inform the public at large our friends and family about how truly normal we are.
Seeker has been a great tool to do just that and we should be grateful to them for it.
In nature there is gay flora and fauna. (Right?)
Only in the human race can we debate the wisdom of god and his creations.
Lesley and everyone all we can do is sit back, watch the fireworks and correct the misnomers that we all make.
Vanyel - “Brings the popcorn!”
I look forward to the emails to see what’s new on the misinformed seeker’s list. I just love people that quote the Bible yet really don’t understand the 10 Commandments.
Yes, such comments exude “love.” Your wonderful snide insults are so loving and enlightened. Congratulations on your moral and intellectual superiority!
I’ve never been insulted with the accusation that I don’t understand the 10 Commandments before, esp. when I’m not sure they are even relevant to this discussion (except to say that idolatry and homosexuality are linked in Romans 1, and of course, all sex outside of hetero marriage is either adultery or fornication), biblically speaking.
I have sinned in the past and in ‘98 God forgave all my sins. In 2001 I was baptized. But wait I’m a lesbian, and therefore still a sinner.
Actually, all those who have been born again are forgiven, but not all that are born again are following Christ, nor are they forsaking sin. While you can be a gay person and become a Christian, you certainly can not become a mature and healthy Christian while holding on to such unclean and debased (Paul’s adjective) affections. You say you have faith, but where is the fruit of love AND holiness?
Monogamous homosexuality is nowhere spoken of favorably, or even neutrally, in scripture, because it is condemned as sinful and unnatural.
You doubt my Christianity because I am not loving enough for you? I have in no way been hateful - I have not called for violence, nor used epithets, nor called into question your salvation.
How’s this - you should doubt your *own* because you lack a desire for holiness. The difference between us is, while I agree with you that Christians are called to love, and I admit that I do it imperfectly, you entirely disagree that Christians should be holy, at least when it comes to sexuality - you have no intention of forsaking such obvious, unnatural sins.
So who is less the Christian, the one who admits their shortcomings, or those who deny they have any?
In nature there is gay flora and fauna. (Right?)
Yes, and there is infanticide, theft, and murder too. Your point is moot.
Only in the human race can we debate the wisdom of god and his creations.
Christian theology clearly teaches that the entire creation fell with Adam, yet retains the mastery of the creator. This paradox mirrors the theology behind the dual nature of man (his imago dei and his fallenness). Looking to creation for morality is a tricky business, because we must distinguish between what is intended and good and what is a result of fall and curse.
NOTE TO WEBMASTER: Can you change the CSS so that links are more obvious? Maybe make them darker?
BTW, while I understand that NARTH and the University of Utah may not be unbiased sources, this somewhat handpicked review of the literature concludes the following. You may take issue with their methods, sampling, motives, whatever, but it is part of the information that Christians take as authoritative. Have fun dismantling it. I apologize if I’ve included too much, I’ve tried to pare it down to essential points, and added some highlighting (my emphasis)…
Anyway, what I’ve quoted above is about 1/5th of the entire article. Suffice it to say that such arguments, on first blush, seem credible to me and those like me. What say ye?
Is seeker truly “seeking?” Or is his/her name just a misnomer?
When confronted by someone that is of the “The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it” mentality, then no amount of proof or argument will disuade them from their position.
Based on seeker’s comments, I conclude that seeker didn’t come here “seeking” knowledge about LGBT Families or how to become an ally. Seeker came here to spout forth his/her own beliefs. Which he/she claims are Christ’s. Yet, he/she can only provide the words of the false apostle, Paul, as proof.
To Seeker:
What I say is that maybe your entire argument here revolves around sex. I want to know why you care so much about what gay people do. It doesn’t affect you or concern you. We’re quite content to stay out of your life and leave you alone. Why can ‘t you just do the same for us?
The thing about most fundamentalists that just makes me laugh and laugh is that you are all so obsessed with sex. You know, if this country was just HALF as uptight about sex as it is now, we’d all be much happier people. Who cares if a child reared by a lesbian mother will be more sexually adventurous? Are you really so naive that you think that a teenager will not have sex just because an adult tells them not to? That’s why abstinence only sex ed is a monumental failure. Kids are going to have sex, whether parents want them to or not, whether they tell them to or not. Would you love your child any less if you found out he or she was not a virgin? I would sincerely hope not, because from reading all the posts above I sincerely believe you might not if one of your children grew up gay or bisexual. Although, I think your child might know better than to tell you while you could still inflict even more appalling damage on their psyche by making them feel like they were somehow abnormal.
As for Marriage in this country….don’t make me laugh. Marriage is a joke. The divorce rate is hovering around 50% among those who CAN legally marry. Maybe your efforts should be focused on that. I’d bet a lot of money that most of those marriages have a sexual dysfunction. What this country should do is require any couple who wishes to make a commitment to each other to sign a legal civil contract. Leave marriage up to individual churches. As far as I’m concerned, heteros can have custody of that, because it’s an ugly, closed minded baby. All I or any other gay person wants is to share the same protection under the law that you and your partner of choice share. We’re willing to fight long and hard for it, and we’ll fight to the death. We are the same as you in every respect, and we deserve the same dignity and respect that you do. If you deserve the rights that come along with marriage, then so do we, and we shouldn’t have to kowtow to your perceived moral authority and marry someone we don’t love just because they happen to be of the opposite sex. Government has NO PLACE legislating morality.
Is seeker truly “seeking?” Or is his/her name just a misnomer?
When confronted by someone that is of the “The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it” mentality, then no amount of proof or argument will disuade them from their position.
I am still seeking truth, but I have made up my mind on some issues, including this one, which I reconsider from time to time. But I didn’t come here as some kind of confused pup looking for your guidance on this issue, if that’s what you think my moniker means.
And I’ve never claimed biblical authority in the manner you cited above - in fact, if you look closely, I have gone out of my way to NOT do that. However, when someone claims that the bible fails to condemn homosexuality, I have answered such claims.
But in determining whether or not those conclusions are correct, I have never retorted to the lazy method you ascribe to me above.
I conclude that seeker didn’t come here seeking knowledge about LGBT Families or how to become an ally. Seeker came here to spout forth his/her own beliefs. Which he/she claims are Christ’s. Yet, he/she can only provide the words of the false apostle, Paul, as proof.
Very insightful of you. True, I did not come here seeking insight, but only to answer a comment that claimed that such loving but truthless perspectives can be labeled “christian.” Yes, I came to spout my opinion on that subject, and since then, have been largely responding to questions, comments, and attacks, explaining and defending my current position.
However, I have learned something unexpected, but something I should have seen. Gay advocates who want to follow scripture have to so something with the clear condemnations of homosexuality in the scriptures.
One method is to use a strained and sloppy hermeneutic to try to make the scriptures condemn something other then homosexuality itself (like merely condemning hx prostitution or rape, or denying one’s true sexual nature). This I have examined and rejected on my own blog.
However, the second method I should have seen coming was a total rejection of the letters of Paul! It makes perfect sense. Don’t like the clear teachings? Reject them as non-canonical!
I guess you’ll have to do that with the OT condemnation of hx also.
I want to know why you care so much about what gay people do. It doesn’t affect you or concern you. We’re quite content to stay out of your life and leave you alone. Why can ‘t you just do the same for us?
I thought I had explained this, but then remembered that I tried to submit my post exactly 7 times before giving up - it seems that the spam filter doesn’t like it. Let me try again:
there are many reasons for heteros to be interested in homosexual advocacy:
- it is one of the civil rights movements of our time
- it is and always has been a questionable moral behavior which is finding, if not pushing for, increased acceptance in public policy. Public policy on such matters is a topic for all citizens to discuss
- it is of current theological importance, as we see entire denominations splitting over it
The thing about most fundamentalists that just makes me laugh and laugh is that you are all so obsessed with sex.
Actually, this is a mischaracterization of the truth. The truth is, sex is important in the Christian tradition and theology, for the main reason that it is so powerful,and so destructive to individuals and society when abused.
When we abuse sex, we get terrible things like sickness and death. We get unwanted children, which often leads to infanticide (abortion here, infanticide in such places as India and China). Christians are concerned about preserving life, and the abuse of sex is one of the biggest life takers.
The fact that the OT listed certain offenses as capitol crimes indicates the Bible’s view of the severity of various sins - so even though we may think that such “benign” sins as prostitution, promiscuity, homosexuality, adultery, and disrespect for authority and parents are not that big a deal, I think the reason that the scriptures take such a stern line on these is that they lead swiftly to destruction for human society and individuals.
Of course, based on this argument, perhaps we should be a lot more concerned about the SIN of gluttony that most of us engage in, to our detriment.
However, sexual sin is more than just bad for the body, but scripture also notes that it is bad for the soul and spirit, while a smothered chicken-fried steak is probably good for the soul ;).
You know, if this country was just HALF as uptight about sex as it is now, we�d all be much happier people.
Do you have data? I think I could find data to show that those with conservative sexual mores are happier than those without.
The divorce rate is hovering around 50% among those who CAN legally marry. Maybe your efforts should be focused on that.
Actually, there are plenty of very active and large ministries, not the least of which is James Dobson’s Focus on the Family, which address this awful crisis. I’d wager that dollar for dollar, much less time and money is spent by Christian organizations on fighting gay advocacy than on poverty, supporting marriage, and parenting. But the more contentious issues get more press, since we love a sensation rather than the “boring” good news of everyday philanthropy.
What this country should do is require any couple who wishes to make a commitment to each other to sign a legal civil contract. Leave marriage up to individual churches.
Many have suggested such. I am undecided about that, still mulling it over.
All I or any other gay person wants is to share the same protection under the law that you and your partner of choice share.
If that was ALL you were interested in, I’d say you should come up with a solution that does not require governmental sanction of gay marriage, nor the devalutation of hetero marriage, becuase those items have serious collateral consequences on our school curriculums and tax laws (esp. when gay advocates try to get tax exempt status of non gay-affirming churches revoked because they won’t marry gays, for example).
Government has NO PLACE legislating morality.
If you believe that, you have no place in the public policy debate. I would argue that ALL legislation is ethical in nature, and also moral. You think prohibitions on murder, theft, and slander are not moral issues? They’re basically three of the ten commandments.
Government should not be in the business of legislating religious observance and rules, but ethical and moral legislation, informed by science and often motivated by biblical mores is how we have been successful, and will continue to be.
Seeker, it will take some time to track down all the cited research and review it. You are correct in noting that NARTH (the web page you are currently citing) is exceptionally biased, hence their name: National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality. As such, they are notorious for reappropriating research by selectively citing only the bits that are useful in furthering their political agenda. However just from what you have bulk copied from the article, the last paragraph is most immediately problematic. Why is it important for females to dress, play and behave in gender conforming ways? Must a girl always wear a dress, be only interested in “girly” things, and behave subserviently to men? Is it also unacceptable to be a compassionate and caring male? I do not necessarily consider these to be “bad” things. Mind you there is no mention of sexual identity only variance from traditional gender roles: man = strong and aggressive; woman = weak and passive. I can see how the findings on sexual experimentation might be troubling to a group who value chastity, but will have to reserve any further comment until I have read the source material.
Also from earlier, “Please don’t bring up the infertile couple argument.” Sorry, I missed that. You have to agree however, the concept of marriage for the sole purpose of procreation does beg the question. But still, your casual dismissal of the argument makes it appear that you have found yourself in a rhetorical trap that you are unable to extricate yourself from. Then by next stating that infertile couples are an “exception to the rule” you are in fact confirming that the rules are not absolute. If infertility is “an unnatural problem to be solved” because two different-sexed individuals are biologically unable to reproduced, then it can be logically deduced that the same could be held true for two same-sexed individuals who are also biologically unable to reproduce. The difference lies only in ideological semantics.
As such, they are notorious for reappropriating research by selectively citing only the bits that are useful in furthering their political agenda.
The question is not whether or not they have a bias (I mean, should I dismiss everything that gay-advocacy groups publish because they are biased? NO, but I should be suspicious), but do they eggregiously misrepresent science?
Why is it important for females to dress, play and behave in gender conforming ways? Must a girl always wear a dress, be only interested in girly things, and behave subserviently to men? Is it also unacceptable to be a compassionate and caring male? I do not necessarily consider these to be bad things.
No, we agree on this. While cultural gender norms often reflect typical gender traits, we should encourage our kids to enjoy what they enjoy. Overly strict gender roles are not good. But when children begin to identify their own self with the opposite gender instead of their biological gender, or when they exhibit SSA, we should be aware that such things are probably NOT normal or healthy, but instead, involve a rejection of their own gender and unhealthy emotional develoment, IMO.
I can see how the findings on sexual experimentation might be troubling to a group who value chastity,
Yep.
the concept of marriage for the sole purpose of procreation does beg the question.
Christian theology teaches that, though marriage is not solely for procreation, that is one of the hallmarks of it. In fact, scripture teaches that having children outside of marriage is sinful, and the studies I have cited above show one reason why - because a stable, loving, hetero parenting couple are what is best for children, and by extension, society.
In fact, I believe that xian theology teaches that marriage is for:
- companionship
- sex
- procreation
One of the mistakes of the modern world view is to try to separate these three, which God has intended for marriage. We want sex without children, or sex without companionship/intimacy, or now, even kids without procreation. This is violating natural and emotional principles, imo.
What I meant by dismissing the infertile couple argument is that, when I argue that nature shows the unnaturalness of homosexuality by entirely disallowing natural child creation (technology aside), I dismiss the retort that such logic would include infertile couples as abnormal, for these reasons:
- the RULE is that hetero couples can procreate, while the exception is that they cant’
- when they can’t procreate, we consider that an abnormality
- the RULE is that gay couples can NEVER produce natural progeny, AND THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS except by doing an end-run using technology
Seeker - In fact, I believe that Xian theology teaches that marriage is for:
- Companionship
- Sex
- Procreation
Answer - Cool we agree on the above view then.
I have Companionship with my love for over 11+years
And ya we still have sex.
We are currently looking into the many ways of having children. We are doing this the RIGHT way by planning for them and doing the research needed to raise them.
By definition we should be married. (And will be soon enough)
Now where in that statement does it say MAN and WOMAN.
Our goals in our relationships are the same, equal and valid as yours.
Seeker you make this way to easy. (Thanks!)
Vanyel waits with baited breath. >.
Seeker - the RULE is that gay couples can NEVER produce natural progeny, AND THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS except by doing an end-run using technology
Answer - So? God gave us brains and we are using them.
Seeker- so we should come up with a solution that does not require government to sanction gay marriage? Why? Government sactions YOUR marriage. Are you trying to say that your relationship with your wife is more important and real than mine with my partner of 10 years?
Now where in that statement does it say MAN and WOMAN.
It is understood implicitly. Jesus’ idea of marriage is quite clear in Matthew 19:4-6
And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
No positive mention or examples of gay unions appear in the scriptures anywhere. And even nature itself, as I explained, demonstrates by the lack of ability to procreate, that homosexuality is wrong. It’s very clear to those of us who aren’t nurturing a gay dysfunction, and to those who have healed from it.
Answer - So? God gave us brains and we are using them.
With that type of ethic, you could justify any use of technology. And my point is, even the “children” of gays can have at most only the genetic material of one parent. Such relationships are clearly against nature.
Seeker you make this way to easy.
Um, whatever. I was defining the PURPOSES of marriage as more than just procreation. I left out the man/woman part because in the biblical model, it is understood that we are talking about a man and woman.
And while your goals (your ends) may be the same, your MEANS to those ends are invalid - the ends don’t justify the means. You seek companionship and sex (and children). Those are worthy ends. But finding companionship/sex through invalid means such as fornication, prostitution, homosexuality, or trying to get children through the abuse of technology is not justified just because your ends are noble.
Nature and nature’s God made hetero marriage as the place for healthy, safe, effective intimacy, sex, and child bearing/rearing. All other methods are inferior, if not sinful, in general.
The ethics and morals of in-vitro fertilization are a separate topic, though.
Seeker- so we should come up with a solution that does not require government to sanction gay marriage?
BTW, as I said, because if as you state, all you are REALLY after are some specific legal rights, and not specifically sanction for gay marriage, finding a solution that doesn’t redefine marriage would (a) find less resistance from the public and conservatives, adn (b) accomplish your goal.
However, I don’t think that just getting those rights is all you are after, and to some extent, they may be inseparable (at least in the minds of gay advocates) from the redefinition of marriage.
Seeker - ‘No positive mention or examples of gay unions appear in the scriptures anywhere.”
Answer - Excellent point Seeker why is that? Oh lets look at who REALLY wrote the bible, as we understand it today. OLD Hetro. MEN, not a single woman was able to lend her voice to the bible. When the old guys got together to create the bible, as we know it they tossed out many, many biblical texts. I have a sinking feeling that good gay people were in the discarded texts somewhere. They wanted to rule the mass and to keep their power base, so they needed to keep the people growing or procreating to do this you need to set laws, rules and restrictions.
As to why I believe that if there was a good light shined on any gay person in the bible organized Christianity, as we know it now would implode.
Seeker - “And even nature itself, as I explained, demonstrates by the lack of ability to procreate, that homosexuality is wrong. It’s very clear to those of us who aren’t nurturing a gay dysfunction, and to those who have healed from it.”
Answer - Here I must correct you sorry man I hate doing this.
Now that science has corrected this problem for all gay people out there.
Now nature is a cruel mistress yes Seeker we as gay people can’t reproduce with the people we love, our parts without help cannot create a baby. So we now turn to science for help and we got it. We’ve fixed the problem of not being able to procreate.
Now everyone please this is just my own opinion, I’m going to give you all my reasoning as to why gay people exist BTW Seeker we as gay people are not here on this earth because of the fall of Adam and Steve opps Eve, we are here as a natural form of population control because god and nature in its wisdom decided that we as gay people shouldn’t pass on our genetic material to the next generation of humans and god being the compassionate lord and master that he is knows that we as humans have a need to be Loved and to be needed. That is why we are attracted to the same sex.
This is just one opinion of a happy gay man.
Seeker - “With that type of ethic, you could justify any use of technology. And my point is, even the “children” of gays can have at most only the genetic material of one parent. Such relationships are clearly against nature.”
Answer - Nope wrong again, as many people including myself can tell you sharing genetic material doesn’t make you a family. Working hard and loving your kids, parents’ partners and friends make you into a family. Adopted kids who have no genetic link to their parents are that also “against nature”? No of course not that is silly. So seeker just the fact that we can’t procreate with our loves don’t make us “against nature” we all are a vital part of it, even you Seeker.
Seeker - “Nature and nature’s God made hetero marriage as the place for healthy, safe, effective intimacy, sex, and child bearing/rearing. All other methods are inferior, if not sinful, in general.
The ethics and morals of in-vitro fertilization are a separate topic, though.”
Answer - God/Nature made male and female, not marriage or mans laws governing such things.
Healthy -check- we have come a long way in maturing into responsible adults.
Safe -check- we’ve paid a heavy cost for our digressions of the past and now we as gay people are maturing into responsible people. Like hetro sex is safe with all the promiscuous husbands and wives out there. Lets talk of AIDS and many other STD’s that our lord god gave to the humans to govern our behavior.
Effective intimacy-Check- same here
Sex - Check- is great!
And child bearing/rearing -check- we gone over this
Inferior - Nope Equal
If not sinful in general - heck living anymore is sinful. I think taking your car to work and breathing is sinful in some states.
Seeker - “The ethics and morals of in-vitro fertilization are a separate topic, though.”
Na-ne? (What?) So science is good for hetro’s and not for Gays? Please explain?
Seeker and anyone sitting on the fence on this issue,
I think this will help you all. Please read this book “Why Marriage? By George Chauncey” you will find out just what gay people will get by being able to marry. Also what we are loosing by not being able to do so.
Sorry I was so long winded I just want you all to know we can’t let people like seeker keep telling us that we a not apart of nature and gods plan. We are equal parts of the plan just as seeker is.
Seeker you’ve forgotten we had to fight for every inch of lives that we are aloud to have.
That is why we will never give up on this topic ever.
We live for drama! Right girls!
;-D
Vanyel
So science is good for hetro’s and not for Gays? Please explain?
I did not say that. Me personally, I am no the fence about in-vitro fertilization, as I am with birth control. I suspect that they are on the fringe of ethical, if not moral violation, even for heteros, but haven’t thought it through.
Please read this book “Why Marriage? By George Chauncey”
Added to my amazon wishlist.
Seeker-
Regarding your argument about “Genetic Material” coming from only one parent. Anyone with a brain knows that just because you can procreate does NOT make you a parent. Any adopted child knows this from day one. A parent is the adult or adults that love a child, care for a child, nurture and protect a child. Any bum off the street can create a child, but a parent, they are not. Gay people are just as capable as parents as you are, because what defines a parent is NOT the ability to have a child. By this logic every infertile hetero couple would not be ligitimate parents. And spare us the stupid diatribe about how that’s not important because in theory they could have a child if they were not infertile. That theory is bunk and everyone knows it. True parentage has to do with intent and love for one’s child, NOT whether the child is one’s actual genetic offspring.
And by the way, I really, REALLY wish you would cease and desist with the little barbs about “moral violations”. These and your comments about anything outside your own world of right and wrong being sinful or unnatural are OFFENSIVE.
You do not speak for God, Seeker. To insinuate that you do is offensive and spiteful. I am QUITE sure that God has never really spoken to you, and that you, like all fundamentalists in your vein of thought, take the bible and the words of jesus out of context to suit your own means. More blood has been shed and more feelings have been trampled on by so called “Christians” over the millennia than any other group of people on this earth. God is not a weapon, and you are not a soldier. Stop hating what you don’t understand. We don’t expect you to experiment with being gay. We don’t expect you to like us. What we DO expect is respect from you. We expect the same RIGHTS that you have, in marriage and otherwise. We are human, and sane, and undamaged, just like you. Our souls are just as pure and valuable as yours. You and your hetero marriage are no better than me and my relationship with my life partner. Love is love. You have no right and are in no position to make a critical evaluation of my life. Remember that what goes around comes around.
STOP PERPETUATING HATE IN THE GUISE OF LOVE.
Vanyel
You bring the popcorn and I got the drinks. been siiting here laughing all day at his misnomers just waiting for the right one to jump back in. You and the others seem to read my mind and get it there before I do. Now for the weekend round. LOL Have a great Labor Day.
Seeker this is a web page for gay families - why do you want to condemn any family and lurk in here?
To Seeker: Keep seeking God, you missed him somehow!
It is not for you to define what is Christian to us. That is God’s job. If you want to be a good Christian, then forget the differences that people have and love equally! Even God has proven that he can change his mind - as documented in the Bible! God at one time apparently destroyed the known world with a flood. God said that he would never do that again also! Proof of God having the ability to change God’s mind about what was written earlier in the Bible! God doesn’t make mistakes, but he does sometimes has regrets! Inequity equals sin in God’s eyes also you know.
Again Seeker, your interpretations is incorrect:
Seeker - ‘No positive mention or examples of gay unions appear in the scriptures anywhere.”
David and Jonathan were heroic figures of the Kingdom of Israel, whose intimate relationship was recorded favorably in the Old Testament books of Samuel. There is debate amongst a few religious scholars whether this relationship was platonic, romantic but chaste, or sexual.
Seeker, when you read your bible, pray for understanding, thank God for it, and accept it. Then read the bible again!
All of you bible thumpers are wasting precious time going back and forth about who said what and where within the bible when the truth be known, the bible is a bunch of crap that holds no proof of who wrote it or when it was written. Why do you always base your belief in a fairytale?
Listen to your heart, which should always tell you that you should never hurt another with words or actions, it’s just plain not good for any of us.
Have you no compassion for others just because they’re different?
Get off of your high horses! You know nothing about what God wants, if there is a God? Can you be anymore arrogant?
People are in need of love and you argue over a stupid book!
Wow.
One person comments on how this mother’s fine, heartfelt letter is “Christian,” and we get into endless religion-flavored discussions of the origins of homosexuality, as well as fruitless writings on sin and scripture.
Please people, this is the 21st century. Sin damaged our genes! Good grief!
We really need to teach the history of religion and comparative mythology in schools.
Dieties are human-invented symbols. All of them. The dieties of the ancient Greek and Egyptian pantheons, the dieties of Hinduism, and the diety discussed in the Bible — whose character changes with every turn of the page. God is a symbol for Absolute Being. There is no supreme person anymore than there is a real man in the moon. The failure of people to grow up and realize this is what led to that mother’s need to write her letter in the first place.
The human race has now split atoms and spliced genes. We can’t afford childish nonsense anymore.
Sin damaged our genes! Good grief!
So are you saying that our attitudes and actions don’t affect our organic body? That ingesting chemicals can’t affect our genes? In fact, the (bogus) theory of evolution proposes just such a thing, so why would the claim that sin (in attitude and actions) affects our bodies seem antiquated to you? Sounds like a knee-jerk reaction, not a thoughtful response.
The human race has now split atoms and spliced genes. We can’t afford childish nonsense anymore.
If science and reason are your Gods, then you might think so. But when you realize the awful limits of reason, and the vastness of the infinite universe and the God who made it, faith in God is not childish at all, it’s common sense.
The fool says in his heart, “there is no god.”
Bogus theory of evolution? Only the stupid would presume to know what “one day” is to God. For all you know, Seeker, seven days to god is seven billion years to us. Only the naive would assume that what is written on paper by MEN is the literal word of god. Every man who tells the story or writes it down twists it to his own meaning.
This is why the bible has more value as literature than as a guide for daily living.
You act like you know so much, but in reality it is so little.
Only the stupid would presume to know what “one day” is to God.
Let’s not stoop to insults. And pursuing that aside is off topic. I was just saying that it seems contradictory for an evolutionary believer to say that actions and attitudes don’t affect our bodies or our genes, since genetic mutation is a given in modern evolutionary theory.
So when a person says “sin affects the genome,” that seems entirely consistent with such presuppositions, and not outlandish like David claimed.
No one said anything insulting, least of all you, right? So all your little barbs about sin, and being gay being a sin, and being unnatural, and “all other methods” other than a hetero relationship being unhealthy…need I go on?
Come off it. You’re all just alike aren’t you? Just once in my life I’d like to meet a conservative christian who doesn’t view me solely on the basis of who I’m sexually attracted to. You go around, acting like you love your fellow man, acting like you really are a true christian, and being deluded enough to think that your little comments won’t be seen for what they truly are.
Just because you wrap something hateful in pretty packaging doesn’t mean it’s any less hateful. You come here to a website that has nothing to do with you, spouting off all this crappy rhetoric just to hurt people that never did anything to you, but you seem to think that you’re being nice about it. Well, SORRY. Being a nice jerk is STILL being a jerk.
And by the way, I’d like to know, since you seem to be dodging the question whenever anyone asks you:
1. Why do you care about what happens in my bedroom?
2. Why do you care who I marry, since it’s not you and has NOTHING at all to do with you?
3. Why do you care anything about me at all?
Please, I’d like straightforward, honest answers instead of all the crap about sin. That’s a tired line.
Seeker you are either looking for validation of your own sexuality or your being paid to monitor this blog. Go out and do a christian thing - Go out and do a christian thing for someone Gay!
Seeker, I’m waiting on an answer.
Aaron:
We all are waiting. I know I am. So in the meantime join me for popcorn and a beverage of your choice. I must say Seeker is very entertaining. I am so glad someone sent me to this site. I sit back and watch him/her just make me laugh. Occassionally I’ll throw my 2 cents worth bback depending on how offending he/she is. Then I wait for the next round.
OK Lesley…but no microwave popcorn. The fumes might make me gay…er.
http://www.twoorthree.net/2007/09/why-conservativ.html
there you go. I tried publishing here, but with too many links, it does not even go to the moderator
So why use links? Can you not support your argument the same way I have?
Why should you have ANY rights that I do not? I am a taxpaying citizen of this country, and I deserve and DEMAND the same treatment and CIVIL RIGHTS that you have.
See, what makes this a civil rights issue is that the majority (acutally a faux majority represented by a minority of loudmouths), represented by persons like you, want to keep rights for themselves that we, the mimority do not have. You think you’re so much better than we, just because you like a woman rather than a man. I am NOT treated the same way in this country that you are.
I cannot carry my partner on my health insurance as a dependent, nor can he.
I cannot claim any marital status other than SINGLE, on my taxes, which is completely innacurate.
I have no visitation rights.
I have no inheritance rights.
YOU have all of these things, and hundreds more, HANDED to you the moment you marry a woman. Marriage in this country should be a fundamental right to all who seek it, not only the ones who meet your narrow definition of a “healthy” or “normal” couple. Maybe what this country really NEEDS is a redefinition of marriage. If your church doesn’t want to do it, fine. Churches refuse to marry straight couples all the time. We could find a church willing to do it. They should be ABLE, if they choose.
Be prepared, Seeker. We will not let go. We will not back down. We will never give up so long as YOU treat us like pariahs. We will never be bullied into silence. We are tired of allowing ourselves to be made victims. We DESERVE the same status you have, and we will have it, whatever the cost. The tide in this country is changing. Maybe not in your little corner of bigotville, but overall it is changing. You’ll have to go with the flow, or shut up and keep your outdated, outmoded hate to yourself. Every day people like me show those around us who have never met a gay person that we are human, and we love, and we are no different than anyone else. Every day we change more minds simply by being ourselves. Wake up! God is watching you too.
STOP PERPETUATING HATE IN THE GUISE OF LOVE.
So why use links? Can you not support your argument the same way I have?
I use links because:
1. I wrote most of those links, and don’t feel like rewriting the content, nor copying it over, nor pasting all of that content here - you want to read what I think, it’s just as easy to follow the links.
2. If I didn’t write it, I don’t need to recreate the wheel if someone else has articulated my position well.
3. While I could digest it for you and put it simply, inevitably, you would have more questions which would require the more detailed arguments anyway.
YOU have all of these things, and hundreds more, HANDED to you the moment you marry a woman.
Some of those rights perhaps should be made to non-family intimates (my term, just coined), but how to do that is the issue - I think that redefining these as “marriage” is both too narrow (what about all of the other non-gay, non-hetero intimate relationships out there?), and causes other legal problems.
Regarding all of the rights you are lacking, you just don’t have them AUTOMATICALLY - you can gain most through simple legal forms like power of attorney, things like that.
Unfortunately, to give you those automatically opens up an entire can of worms, including the redefinition of marriage, the slippery slope of all of the other non-marriage relationships that might demans the same automatic rights, and a host of other legal issues, including the impact on schooling, religious liberties and tax codes, etc.
So some of what you are asking for is available to you, and without creating the uneccesary mess that would accompany your chosen solution - the mainstream and legal acceptance of homosexuality as normative.
Healthy citizens and families do not want that.
We will not let go. We will not back down.
I expect not, but because you are pursuing what is contrary to nature, you will always be pushing uphill, Sisyphus (funny how that name also has a root similar to “sissy” - humorous coincidence).
Maybe not in your little corner of bigotville, but overall it is changing.
Nice little hateful remark. Does that make you a resident of hateville? Practice what you preach. And as I’ve said, if the tide is changing to accept homosexuality (and it has), then we are not on the brink of a new day of freedom, but of destruction - of the family, of morality, marriage, sexuality, and health. God help us when we call sickness healthy.
Every day people like me show those around us who have never met a gay person that we are human, and we love, and we are no different than anyone else.
No one argues that you are not people, etc. But homosexual affections are an illness. Give me a call when one of you gets pregnant by natural means.
STOP PERPETUATING HATE IN THE GUISE OF LOVE.
Acceptance of immorality is not love, it’s called deception. And allowing people to remain in their deception is not love, it’s cowardice and capitulation. Love tells the truth, and of course, with gentleness. Surely, I and others who doubt the moral rectitude of gay love could be more loving, but we could not be more correct as to it’s unnaturalness, roots in dysfunction, and immoral nature.
I wish seeker would self destruct. I guess my days of jiffy pop and orville redenbacher made me a lesbian. Roflmao. For you I will pop some on the stove if I remember how to!! Lol. Hell I’m queer, not a steer and could go for a very cold rootbeer!!! I love this site and some of the stuff that comes up on it. Have a great day my friend and beware of microwaved popcorn. It could be catching.
Lesley,
You are free to make light of the serious conversation - perhaps you tire of such discussions, or perhaps out of self-defense or inability to provide reasoned responses, you have retreated to a position of scoffing.
In any case, I feel I have made my case here. Since I do not frequent this blog, you have seen the last of me here. However, I do turn up on some other gay-advocate blogs, and of course, I regularly comment on the evangelical position on homosexuality on my own blog.
May Jesus show you his holiness, “without which no one will see God.”
Seeker,
I look at you as the Jerry Falwell of blogs. I didn’t agree with him 20 yrs ago and I don’t agree with you now. Maybe you need to eat some microwave popcorn and see things from our perspective. I got homestyle and movie theater with tons of butter and a case of A&W rootbeer. So join me on the couch and lets discuss The Lord Jesus Christ, the light of the almighty God. Everyday when I wake up and before I go to sleep at night, I pray to Jesus. I ask for another sober day in the morning and thank him at night for another day sober. Just because I don’t quote the Bible doesn’t mean I don’t know God, or how to worship him. I am one of God’s children and everyday I ask what HIS will is for me that day. I could sit here and type all kinds of stuff back and forth to you, however, in reality I don’t need to. I am comfortable with who I am and my place on Earth. When I die I will meet God and be embraced with love. I will be welcomed with open arms and I will continue to do his will. Maybe I’ll see you there and then again maybe I won’t. No one knows for sure. Have a great day and keep preaching maybe someone will stop and listen, yet then again they might not. Have a great day Seeker and may God Bless you.
Blessed Be my friend
Similar to Sissy? You think that’s humourous? How DARE you ?!?
Yes, I do. You have the sense of humor of a fundamentalist - i.e. you don’t have one, and can’t seem to laugh at yourself. Work on it.
BTW, how many feminists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
Fuck You Seeker….Bless you Seeker. May you find TRUE enlightenment and love.
Um, do you see a contradiction there?
If your god is the true god (which I am quite sure he is NOT), then I want no part of it.
Yes, well, so be it. Perhaps I am mistaken. But biblically speaking, I would say that I am not.
You just can’t take it that God, who you profess to follow, loves me just as much as he (or she, who knows) loves you.
Actually, that is totally consistent with my thinking. I am no better than you, and God certainly loves us all. However, not all will inherit the kingdom of God, as jesus and paul both taught.
The only difference is (probably, since I’m not really sure what you believe) that (a) i have admitted my sinfulness and trusted Christ to save me, (b) that salvation is real in that it produced and does produce real change in me, which includes acknowledging and forsaking sin (including sexual sin), and (c) I am not under the illusion that who God is is merely a subjective opinion, but a reality to discover.
but you have NO regrets about your treatment of gay people.
Actually, I am constantly thinking about how I could be kinder and more effective, but that doesn’t stop me from proclaiming the scripture’s message that homosexuality is sinful.
Comment: Aaron
You go b/f. Tell that little weasle off. God will forgive the FU statement. At least yours and mine will. Don’t know Seeker’s might make you burn in the place below. My brother is a Christian and when I came out to him, he wasn’t exactly thrilled , yet he accepted my life as I choose to live it. All he wants is for me to be happy. He doesn’t LOVE me any less. So maybe Seeker can take a lesson from him because my brother didn’t throw the scripture in my face or anything else. He gave me his blessing and that was that. I truly hate narrowminded people. As I told Seeker, he the Jerry Falwell of this site. LOL So I’m just going to sit back and relax and Aaron come join me on the sofa for microwaved popcorn and a drink. We might as well eat it we’re already gay so who cares. Oh wait Seeker might hahahahhaha!!!!
WOW! I leave and Lesley and Seeker start fighting.
Lesley and everyone,
My mama told me “Seeker is, as Seeker does” so let the man vent and get it all out of his system. Besides I remember not all that long ago that I was so deep into my faith that I literally rebelled against the “gay” community. I hid behind my faith so that I wouldn’t have to deal with the feelings, wants and desires that I was having. So seeker just might be “Seeking” his way out of the closet. Let’s not scare him with all our venomous responses. OK
Oh Lesley,
Please pass me some of that great popcorn.
>.
Vanyel
Well someone had to keep the fire going. So here’s some more of that great popcorn. If you don’t want any Seeker then I have this to say, “Run Seeker Run” or you’ll be gay if you eat it. Roflmao My mama always said “Life is like a bucket of popcorn, you never know what you’re gonna get”!!!! MMM MMM MMM this here popcorn sure is good. Hear try some.
I know that it’s really, really bad for my health. But, pass me the caramel popcorn!
I’ll wash it down with some apple juice, just to balance the health aspects!
[…] Hand her this letter and ask her opinion: http://www.familypride.org/blog/2007/08/… […]
Come one come all! I have all kinds of popcorn. I have caramel, butter, cheese, kettle. I have apple juice, orange juice, iced tea and an assortment of sodas. So come join me and we’ll have a GAY old time. Happy munching to all. Let’s roll!! C’mon Seeker I know you’re dying to say something new, so let it rip. We’re ready popcorn and all. Love you all that are with me.
If you would like to continue to interact on this subject, you can visit my site, which has an entire category for discussing gay and lesbian issues.
http://www.twoorthree.net/gay_lesbian/index.html
Ah! The smell of freshly popped corn and butter! Delish!
Seeker is totally gay. Poor guy. God bless his ass.
Bshitmeter: Dang I leave for a month and come back and see the little weasle is still at it. Well you might as well join me, Aaron, Vanyel and Stefan on the couch and love seat with the popcorn and the drink of your choice. Now mind you microwaved popcorn makes us GAY so jukmp in and enjoy the fun. I just love mine covered in butter, running down my face and all over my fingers, just like my women. But them I prefer covered in whipped cream. MMMMMMMMM as I lick my fingers!!!!
Great…being gay is being compared to shoving a pencil up your nose. Wow…this Seeker guy is brilliant.
Obviously addressing the problem of bullying homosexuals is the same as addressing those who’ve been raped.
Blaming the victim because obviously their actions brought about the situation. (Roll eyes)
This was an interesting letter. It reminds me of many lessons in Bible:
“All have sinned and come short of the glory of God”
This letter and it’s responses reminds me of the stoning of Mary Magnalene.
It seems that Jesus knew that alot of people were stoning Mary Magdalene to cover their own sins.
So here is my response. How many of the people that responded here are guilty of the sin of idolitry. And how many adultery, and how many steal, how many lie, how many disrespect their children and their parents, how many have taken the Lord’s name in vain? How many are greedy? How many are fornicators? How many have forgotten the kingdom of God. We are flesh, and we live in the flesh and we are constantly tempted by evil. The Devil leaves us all holding the bag, and today the world is in great pain for all it’s sins. So who of us can point the finger at anyone and say no one will enter the kingdom of God. We have all taken our eyes away from the father. How many of you are liars? These are all sins the Bible talks about.
How do you know how mankind will come to God? How can we speak for God when our own lives are a mess? If each man and woman would clean up the messes in their own lives our country would be alot better. So look into your own house………..Is there a thief there, or a fornicator, or an adulterer, or greed. How many of us have put other things before God. A man or woman who lives in darkness in any manner cannot judge because he has a log in his eye. Ever try to look past a log, or a beam as the Bible says? You must go around the beam to see what your brother is doing. It is a sin to be nosey, a gossip and a back biter. So who in mankind can judge? We must all leave the room. The Bible says that only the Christ can judge. He has paid the price. Which one of your friends would hang on the cross for your sins……………..Do I see people leaving the room? As the people who were willing to stone Mary Magdelene, so should be all leave this room, because none are good, all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. So who of us will ever see the Kingdom of God? Go home and tell God your sins, and repent of your immorality and hope God lets any of us into his wonderful kingdom. None of us have a red phone to the Kingdom of God. He makes the choice not man. What we do is short lived. As he said to Job “Where were you………..when I put down the cornerstones of the earth. Who are you Job? If he said this to Job, then who are we? I pray everyday that I do not fall into the temptations of evil thinking. That I can myself stay out of sin. As the thief said on the cross. I am a sinner…………but you are innocent. So if the world is so good and they can judge, how come they killed the Christ? The innocent one. Would they not have spared him? So can we really judge anything if our own ancestors put an innocent man to death? I think not.
Seeker needs to keep seeking. Seeking answers and truth, not just his ‘belief’. After all a belief is nothing more than dogma with nothing to substantiate it except one’s own beliefs.
“Whatever” is true because its in the bible and the bible is truth. Its a book of anecdotes, guidelines and “rules for controlling the masses when convenient” and not a hell of a lot more than that. Aesops fables contain nearly as much wisdom.
There was no flood, there was no ark, there was no parting of the red seas and any 1/2 assed magician can turn water into wine. Chirst wasn’t born in December, the religious holidays are pagan festivals…there sounds like more untruths than truths in the bible but so many follow it blindly. “Conveniently” we keep getting new ‘interpretations’ as one thing after another is proven false. Truly the blind continue to lead the blind into dogma, righteousness and salvation….may your imaginary gods help you.
God does not lie
I am god
I am not lying because I am god.
We are all blessed to have a mother and a son in the world like them.